Fight! Fight! FIA and BAR at the bike racks after school! | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Fight! Fight! FIA and BAR at the bike racks after school!

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by hps, May 4, 2005.

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  1. glh

    glh Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2005
    328
    Burlington VT
    Full Name:
    G.L.
    I'm sure some lawyers will enlighten us on all angles while billing all involved thousands of dollars per hour...

    Nice to see that honest profession is not only dragged through the gutter here in the U.S.

    BTW if your not busted on the site at time of the race... it's semantics nothing should be done post-event.
     
  2. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
    2,598
    Pacific NW
    Full Name:
    Anthony C.
    From www.F1Racing.net
    04 May 2005
    Alonso: Ferrari and BAR are cheating!
    Fernando Alonso isn't very positive about colleague teams BAR and Ferrari. The Spaniard said ahead of his home Grand Prix that both BAR and Ferrari are cheating.

    "There are two teams that are cheating," Alonso told Spanish newspaper Marca. "The first one is BAR, which became clear in Imola. But Ferrari is also cheating. They keep on testing and testing although everyone agreed teams wouldn't test more than 30 days per season." Alonso did admit though that Ferrari didn't agree really to the gentlemen agreement of the nine other teams, but doesn't approve what Ferrari is doing.

    Do you think he is a little rattled now after Imola? So far he has proven that he is a GP winner, I guess we will now see if he has what it takes to be a World Championship winner, as now the pressure of winning will now come at him at full force.
     
  3. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 3, 2002
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    Andreas
    I wonder why he says that. Probably to create pressure on the FIA not to ban BAR.

    If they bar BAR and we end up with 18 cars, man can you say SUCKS?
     
  4. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    Which thread are we using for this discussion? ... makes life hard work for us workers who are trying to sneak in a little F1 talk to keep awake at work ;)

    Pete
     
  5. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    Article 4.1 states as you quoted that at any time DURING the event the car must not weigh less that 600kg, so how can this NOT be racing weight, ie. they are at an event and going about the business of racing the car?

    This all comes down to: Does it say somewhere in the rules that the car must be completely empty of fuel for the weigh in?

    Even if it does EVERY team has been cheating because what about the fuel in the engine (ie. injection rails, fuel lines, etc.). Thus BAR have some sort of between tank and engine settling or anti-surge tank ... well so do the other teams (ie. fuel rails, etc.), but it sounds like BAR's might be a little too large (;)).

    Now if the engine can not run with that empty so fncken what ... thus the weight is always there.

    Thus does the FIA
    1. restrict the length of the fuel lines?
    2. restrict any use of a tank like substance in the design of the engines fuel system?
    3. clarify what empty of fuel really means?

    Yet again the FIA have been found wanting 'cause they could not write an unambiguous rule if it hit them in the face. They are close to morons IMO.

    There should be no need for the lovely concept of 'spirit of the rules and sport' ... the FIA should simply think before they write anything, so if they want an empty car weighed ... then specify what empty means.

    IMO the FIA wants BAR out so bad ... 'cause they have made them look like the idiots they are.

    Pete
     
  6. Mike360

    Mike360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2004
    3,429
    Sydney, Australia
    Full Name:
    Mike
    I know the feeling.
    Its 9:45am and im ready for bed again.......:)
     
  7. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
  8. LightGuy

    LightGuy Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 4, 2004
    39,592
    Texas
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    David
    Its negotiations: you ask for barring and settle for a few measly $Mil.
     
  9. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,878
    Bakersfield, CA
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    Payne
    In my mind BAR did nothing wrong. There car never ran underweight and even the FIA lawyers agree with that.

    Points of contention are the fact that a BAR employee was asked if the car was completely drained and responded 'yes' while in fact the second tank had not been drained. Also, the fuel needed to run the engine could be seen as ballast, which would be bad because ballast needs to be bolted down with tools.
     
  10. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    Agree ... but lets talk about your second point/sentence.

    When the FIA go up to a Ferrari/McLaren/Williams/Renault employee and ask them to drain the fuel tank ... they do just that, as did the BAR employee. They do NOT check that every little bit of fuel has been drained from the car ... thus the engine fuel injection fuel rails and hoses, etc. will still have fuel in it. Thus my point is what is the difference? If BAR decide they need a little tank to solve fueling issues with their engine and submitted this to the FIA (as they did) and were approved then what is the big deal.

    Again the FIA need to make their rules clearer. If the BAR can start a race with more than the allowed maximum amount of fuel (assuming there is a limit) then they are cheating ... otherwise NOT, because when the fuel TANK was emptied the car was not under weight.

    Now when the engine itself was emptied of fuel it was under weight ... ask Ferrari/McLaren, etc. to empty their fuel lines of fuel, etc. and weigh them ... they will have lost weight too.

    Since the stupid days of allowing refueling the teams can make the fuel tank as large as they like (within maximum rules, I assume) and simply cop the negative of racing with an over large tank compared to the other cars (like the v12 Ferraris used to).

    We are getting all upset about the fact that BAR have another thing on their car that is by definition a tank ... again one could argue that a fuel hose is a flexible tank and a fuel injection rail is a tank. I know my father's Formula 500 that he used to hill climb had a little fuel collector/tank that solved fuel surge for him ... but that was not the fuel tank but part of the fueling system.

    Thus again BAR have NOT broken any rule as carrying too much fuel is not illegal ... running under weight is, but they never were.

    I'd be really, really pissed if I was BAR and Honda, in fact I would do everything I could to make FIA appologise and show themselves up to the press and public for the complete morons they are.

    Rules are only bent when the rules are not written intelligently. The FIA probably get paid millions each year to look after the F1 rules ... and my 4 year old daughter could probably write better ones, and she is still learning to write :)

    Pete
     
  11. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    i'd never join a club that would have me...

    --Dan
     
  12. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    2,278
    Sheffield, UK
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    Anthony Currie
    BAR have been excluded from the San Marino GP which has cost them 10 points. They have also been banned from the next 2 races!! They will be missing Monaco!
     
  13. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    2,278
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    Anthony Currie
    more:
     
  14. srslusso

    srslusso Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2005
    874
    Encino,Ca.
    Full Name:
    Steve S.
    BAR has the NASCAR syndrome, where they must be fast enough to keep their sponsors and will do anything they can get away with to gain an advantage. Colin Chapman interpreted the rules years ago, just as well as Junior Johnson, so did Jim Hall etc.etc. It's part of racing unfortunately !
    They should be fined and maybe excluded from 1 race but not the whole season.
    Formula 1 should get rid of Minardi they are a joke and have been for years. Let Ferrari etc.run 3 cars, most of the major teams could field a third car, there are plenty of drivers to go around and the fastest 20 cars qualify for the race. Also lets go back to the old qualifing system, lots of flying laps,guessing on tires,Schumacher squeezing the last few ticks off the clock on Saturday was often one of the most exciting parts of race weekends . A lot more spectators would return, note: Imola was half empty Saturday according to Speed Channel.
     
  15. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
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    Dr. Dumb Ass
    Rule #1 in racing:

    If you're not cheating, you're not trying.
     
  16. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Hint taken. Two threads combined.
     
  17. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    2,278
    Sheffield, UK
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    Anthony Currie
    This news will almost certainly mean Jenson will be driving for a different team next year - most likely Williams.
    His contract enables him to walk if he hasn't scored 75% of the points of the championship leader by the Turkish GP.

    I wonder if Dave Richards knew about this? I wonder who tipped off the FIA? ;)
     
  18. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    If he goes to Williams, who is gonna leave there? Not unusual for Williams to use a little pressure on his drivers to perform. This will make the internal battle even more interesting.

    Good point about Richards.

    All in all I find the sentence fair. It is par for the course in situations like this. And shouldn't hurt BAR too much since they're not gunning for the title but will get the message to all teams across.
     
  19. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
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    Gary B.
    BAR lose Imola points and handed two-race ban
    ICA find BAR Honda guilty of cheating

    BAR Honda will now miss the Spanish and
    Monaco Grand Prix

    BAR Honda were today banned from competing in the next two Grand Prix after being found guilty of cheating at last month's race in San Marino.

    The verdict was handed out by motor racing's governing body the FIA after its International Court of Appeal ruled that the car Button drove to finish third at Imola was underweight.

    In addition to being excluded from the next two races BAR have retrospectively been thrown out of the San Marino race meaning the ten points they gained there will be wiped off the record books.

    In addition, they have also been handed a six month suspension suspended for one year should they be found guilty of breaking F1 rules a second time.

    BAR, who vigorously deny they used an illegal fuel system to gain an advantage on their grid rivals, were facing the risk of being thrown out of this season's championship altogether - the punishment demanded by the FIA.
     
  20. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Anthony Currie
    #46 Anthony_Ferrari, May 5, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  21. F1racer

    F1racer F1 Rookie

    Oct 5, 2003
    4,749
    Laval
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    Jean
    Do we have any words from Button, Sato, Willis and Nakamoto? I will like to hear their reactions.

    BAR loses all 10 points from the San Marino GP...Now Wurz gets 3rd place, JV 4th, JT 5 th, NH 6th, MW 7th and Liuzzi 8th for final point? I didn't the see the changes on f1.com for the standings.
     
  22. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I bet they all got a gag order from their team. I don't expect any insight statements.

    Interesting question about the points.
     
  23. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

    Jan 9, 2004
    7,765
    Nova Scotia Canada
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    Neil
    PARIS, France -- The BAR Formula One team has been banned for two races and excluded retroactively from the San Marino Grand Prix by an international court of appeal.
     

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