Fight! Fight! FIA and BAR at the bike racks after school! | FerrariChat

Fight! Fight! FIA and BAR at the bike racks after school!

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by hps, May 4, 2005.

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  1. hps

    hps Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
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    This from Autosport-Atlas this morning....looks as if the FIA is looking to throw some weight around...

    hps

    FIA Wants BAR Excluded

    By Jonathan Noble, from Paris Wednesday, 04 May 2005 09:29


    Formula One's ruling body has asked the Court of Appeal in Paris to throw the BAR team out of this year's Formula One Championship.

    The FIA, in their evidence dossier, also recommended a penalty of at least one million Euro.

    "The FIA asks the Court to exclude the Lucky Strike BAR Honda team from the 2005 Formula One World Championship and to fine the team at least one million Euros," said the FIA.

    The hearing is expected to finish at 2pm local time.
     
  2. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    and so they should.

    If a team runs a secret extra fuel tank to allow extra range, while going underweight to do so, and set some superfast laps in the run up to a fuel stop, then that is a blatant cheat.

    IF they can PROVE they never run under the minimum weight during the race, then there should be no penalty at all.

    IF..... as Murray said... F1 backwards.
     
  3. racerx3317

    racerx3317 F1 Veteran

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    Wow, if they can prove that it's pretty much a dead cheat, no question. A bit harsh of a penalty i think though.
     
  4. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

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    I don't think BAR will suffer any penalty. It looks like some ex-BAR employees have tipped off the FIA. The FIA found the secret fuel tank. When they emptied it the car was underweight. However, I think BAR can prove that the car never ran underweight during the race so they didn't break the rules.

    If they are found guilty I believe that they will be excluded from the Championship. I don't think they will be found guilty though.
     
  5. DGS

    DGS Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Headline: FIA want BAR BAR. ;)

    (I once shot an elephant in my pajamas -- how he got in my pajamas I'll never know.)
     
  6. Koby

    Koby Formula 3

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    This is funny, I suppose after the FIA throws BAR out, they will fine them for not making a 20 car grid? Quite a mockery they've made of themselves. BAR should be penalized, but throwing them out of the championship is absurd.
     
  7. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

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    Got this from http://www.fun-1.org/archives/formula1grandprix/001532what_the_regulations_say_about_weight.html

     
  8. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Precisely.

    20 cars are 4 cars short already of a full grid. Don't need to see 18 cars.
    :(
     
  9. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

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    2 teams at each race would have to field a 3rd non-point scoring car. This could lead to real mayhem. What if the 3rd Renault knocked Schumacher off during a race?!

    It's not looking good for BAR so far:
     
  10. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Interesting point, didn't realize that there is the 3 car option, that would at least fill the field.

    Personally I'm just as worried about Rubens knocking Alonso. Shades of USGP against JPM come back to mind.
    :(
     
  11. senna21

    senna21 F1 Rookie

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    FIA calls for BAR exclusion from championship

    This should be a good one! "The team (BAR) said there was no secret fuel tank, only a collection device that the FIA was already aware of."

    So, this seems to be a classic "rules interpretation" that many of us F1 fans love!!!! FIA will say, "it's an extra gas tank" and BAR will say, "no... it's a collection device. And there's nothing in the rules that say's we can't have one and you already knew about it."

    Which if history is any indication would be within the interpretation of the law but, having it's ass handed to them the FIA will ignore this fact and BAN BAR for the rest of the season.

    If this happens who do you guys think will get their grid spots in order to make the 20 starters? Would we get 3 Williams and 3 McLarens on the grid? Wouldn’t that be fun!!!
     
  12. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    Hmmmmm. It's always hard to tell without knowing all the details, but then again, the FIA seems to like keeping their rules somewhat vague. They apparently knew about and approved the device, which would tell me it's the FIA's responsibility to establish parameters for it. If they're trying to make a rule adjustment "on the fly", then they're clearly out of line.
     
  13. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Remember the barge boards on the Ferraris that were 10mm out of tolerance? Well not from that angle, only from this one...

    And the vacuum cleaner in the Brabham to "cool the engine"?

    Or the double chassis of the Lotus?

    Or the "garagistes" in the FISA/FOCA war who lowered their cars when out on the track to have their skirts touch the ground again?

    Or the traction control in the Mc Laren?

    Or the refueling rig without filter from Benetton?

    BAR did just another one of these. Every smart team has tried to outsmart the rules over the years and got caught with it. They have all received slaps on the wrists and didn't do it thereafter. That's what BAR should get. But not an exclusion from the season, that's idiotic.
     
  14. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    No kidding! Full-season expulsion seems a tad extreme.
     
  15. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Just thinking about it I wonder how much secrecy can you possibly have in a F1 car these days towards the FIA?

    All cars are being checked before the race for dimensions etc. Also all engines are being sealed by the FIA, so I'd think there are FIA personnel asigned to each car over the weekend to make sure nobody swaps engines "accidentally". Well if you have that much access to the pits, wouldn't you see such an auxiliary tank? Say what you want about the FIA, but I'm sure their agents know quite a bit about the technology and check these cars out and would sooner or later stumble across such a device. And a spare tank IMHO is a lot easier to spot than things hidden in the software of engine management.

    So if the cars have been deemed legal all this time, now throwing the hammer down like this is just...well you got my point.
     
  16. GoFerrari28

    GoFerrari28 Formula 3

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    If true and BAR are banned, Button automatically becomes a Williams BMW driver.

    I hope it's not, especially if the FIA scrutineers had already had 3 previous races to inspect the car and the offending part (assuming it was there), but it's not the first time that the FIA has ever deemed a part legal and then reversed itself. I can honestly see Honda threatening to pull out of F1 since they spent so much money to adhere to the new 2005 regulations and they still have 13 races to go. I hope the FIA doesn't get BAR banned, well, maybe just get Takuma Sato banned. He's an accident waiting to happen anyways.
     
  17. rsvmille676

    rsvmille676 Formula Junior

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    Competitive Racing is all about finding the most clever ways to get away with cheating.

    To quote local FUSA/CCS MC roadracer Chuck Chiounard "Using steel wool to polish valves is not the same as a five angle valve job.. really..It just might look that way."
     
  18. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I think you're right. He has that clause in the contract that he is free to leave if he doesn't get within x% of the champions points.

    I'm just thinking how F1 works: It is a big $$$ show run by Zampano Bernie. The governing body is FIA run by Mad Max, who happens to be one of the closest friends of Mr. E. Less constructors and less cars means a loss of the overall value of the show, so not in Bernie's interest. Don't you think he is on the phone right now to Mosley fixing this?
     
  19. teak360

    teak360 F1 World Champ

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    I can't imagine they would ban Bar Honda and risk having Honda pull out of F1 in protest. There aren't exactly a bunch of teams with a few hundred million dollars laying about waiting to get into F1. It's probably just a PR ploy to raise interest or wake up all the teams to the fact that "yes, we are serious about our scrutineering".
    I would say the chance of a ban that sticks is less than1%
     
  20. F1racer

    F1racer F1 Rookie

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    It won't happen.
    And no way JB is becoming a BMW Williams driver this year. If it happens, I'll find it disgusting to see MW or NH leaving. Maybe he will be among the team but not racing for them.
    Speaking of cheating....today FA told the medias that Ferrari and BAR are the only teams in F1 that are cheating. http://www.f1racing.net/en/news.php?newsID=84983
     
  21. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    As much as I like Alonso, that statement is just silly: Cheating with the auxiliary tank is not the same as testing the car. Second it is a self imposed ban, not a real rule and third if we want to really split hairs, what about the British teams that got creative last week and went testing in some forelorn places in the UK? That would be cheating, if it really were a rule.

    I think Alonso is just playing mind games. Not unusual, but it doesn't behoove him.
     
  22. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

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    This seals it, the FIA, Mosely and Bernie have totally lost their mind.
     
  23. GoFerrari28

    GoFerrari28 Formula 3

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    Actually, I meant JB would become a Williams driver for '06, but it does raise an interesting legal issue. Legally, JB could probably allege that BAR breached his contract by virtue of running an illegal car, and that the penalty by the FIA, if there is a ban, was a direct result of that violation. Therefore, JB should be let out of his contract immediately.

    The FIA have already said that in case of a ban, other teams may be permitted to run a 3rd car, so I could very easily see Williams fielding a 3rd car with JB as the driver.
     
  24. senna21

    senna21 F1 Rookie

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    Bubble-Boy (DONALD) : OK, HISTORY. THIS IS FOR THE GAME. HOW YA DOIN' OVER THERE? NOT TOO GOOD!
    GEORGE: All right BB. Let's just play... Who invaded Spain in the 8th century?
    Bubble-Boy (DONALD): THAT'S A JOKE. THE MOORS.
    Bubble-Boy (DONALD): Oh, Noooo, I'm so sorry. It's the MOOPS. The correct answer is, The MOOPS.
    waives the answer car at DONALD
    Bubble-Boy (DONALD): MOOPS? LET ME SEE THAT. THAT'S NOT MOOPS YOU JERK, IT'S MOORS. IT'S A MISPRINT.
    GEORGE: I'm sorry the card says MOOPS.
    Bubble-Boy (DONALD): IT DOESN'T MATTER. I'S THE MOORS. THERE'S NO MOOPS.
    GEORGE: It's MOOPS.
    Bubble-Boy (DONALD): MOORS.
    GEORGE: MOOPS,
    Bubble-Boy (DONALD): MOORS!

    It’s all how you interpret the rules.

    Don’t be surprised if they do kick BAR out for the season.. I think there was an article on PitPass.com a few days ago bringing up a good example. All those sites are running together in my mind. Anyway, they brought up the fact that a similar issue came up regarding Tyrell dumping lead shot into the tank with their fuel during their last pit stops during the race. Apparently there was nothing in the rules preventing this at the time. From what I gathered the rules just said that when the car was weighed it had to be the minimum weight. It said nothing about the car actually having to be at the minimum weight while it was running out on the track, as the rules today do. Car comes in for the last pit stop… in goes fuel and lead shot. Car goes back out, and is up to weight. The FIA apparently was embarrassed that 1) they didn’t figure on someone doing this and left a big loop-hole in the rules and 2) Tyrell was the only team running a naturally aspirated engine on an otherwise all turbo grid…not exactly showing F1 as the “Pinnacle of Technology.”

    Since they couldn’t get them on breaking the rules with adding the lead shot because technically they weren’t breaking any they busted them for illegal fuel! You see at this time in history all “high tech” countries were moving to unleaded fuel as it’s less pollutant. When the lead shot went in some lead was released and mixed with the fuel (in very, very small amounts) making it illegal. The FIA then hit Tyrell for illegal fuel, stripped them of all the points received up to that race, and banned them for the rest of the season! Don’t be surprised if they do it to BAR. They’ve done it in the past.

    But, not exactly what you’d want to do to a team/manufacturer with rumblings of a break-away series on the horizon… as of today Ferrari have hit 30 days of testing. The sh*t’s hitting the fan this weekend for sure.

    http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=24299
     
  25. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

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    This was the first race that BAR had finished this year. The FIA were tipped off by an ex BAR employee.

    Bernie reckons BAR are guilty, he also says that we will have an 18 car grid if BAR are excluded.
     

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