FIA Grand Prix (Mclaren hearing) ****spoilers*****

LOL....now, never thought of that, what a hoot

BTW, Ferrari's WCC win, should IMO be with asterisk no doubt. They truly didn't earn the right to a better constructed car against McLaren and just because one wins races doesn't even speak for a better car IMO.

I'm a Ferrari fan for sure. but not blind to the nonsense of this cup....


I mean, if Ferrari doesn't win races, so there is no one there to get the constructor's trophy at the podium when someone else [MM] is constantly getting the win etc. how would one honestly like receiving the WCC? It has a lemonaid taste.

 

interesting, very interesting, all that lot relates to tyres in one way or another.
i said last night that tyre info was the only useage of ferraris data that i'd accept as being reasonable

i dont condone cheating and im not a fan of what some people refer to as "gamesmanship" either as i feel its cheating by another name.
but by the same morals i dont condone the massively unfair advantage ferrari had this year over the other big teams - namely they had tyre info on the tyres that ALL teams now have to use.

 

Ferrari paid a heavy price for that information by loosing the 2005 (and to some degree the 2006) championship/s.

 

how they used it is down to them.
it is a fact though that they did have it and no other big team did.

 

+1

 

I wonder...did Ferrari gain that "massively unfair advantage" over the other big teams illegally? Like McLaren did this season over Ferrari??

 

Check out the team standings on the official F1 site: http://www.formula1.com/results/team/

HAHAHAHA. Go swivel, Dennis!

 

i didnt say they had gained it illegally - just that it was morally unfair.

and sorry but if they used the data (which seems to relate to tyres) then they would have possibly gained parity - not an advantage.

 

This sentence in paragraph 5.3 of the WMSC decision pretty much sums it all up...

"It is not necessary for McLaren to have copied a complete Ferrari design for it to have benefited from Coughlan's knowledge."

 

They may be "responsible" for their employee's actions but show me which rule they broke. To say that Ferrari is culpable is like saying a homeowner is to blame if he leaves his door unlocked and someone steals his tv. Ridiculous. McLaren employees used illegally obtain information. Period. End of story. They are guilty and should be punished. So should their drivers.

 

+1

 

hmmm just had a chance to sit down and read the WMSC pdf as opposed to relying on other ppls summarys.


the tyre info stuff confirms what i thought before - an unsound way of getting it, but its info that i feel ALL the teams should have had from the start of the season.

the braking thing though - thats very dodgy, doesnt seem to relate to tyre but is more about the actual system and adjustment available and doesnt look good on mclarens behalf.

gotta say though that im pretty disgusted with Alonshole and De La Rosa's behaviour.
looks like they still communicated with coughlin well after he was suspended.

whether they gained an "unfair advantage" i guess we will never know but its very true that the 3 of them did try to use the data on several occasions to improve the cars performance.
there also a few "leaps of faith" made by the WMSC

however key figures in the sport have said this sort of thing isnt unusual.

Im glad LH comes out of it free of any tarnish
no mention of RD knowing anything either (i never thought id feel sorry for him, but in a way i do)

all in all i would have to say FROM WHAT WE KNOW that McLaren did deserve some form of punishment, as does Alonshole
but im not sure the punishment given fits the crime - Toyota got off scott free from a far larger infraction a few yrs back.

 

BUHAHAHAHA

and here is your trophy McCheaters...
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

ok

"Article 3.1 states it is the responsability of the team that each member abides by the rules and regulations of the FIA"

your analogy is whats ridiculous -it isnt even vaguley a comparable scenario

its not the end of the story.
what your failing to understand is that BOTH teams have entered a competition and BOTH are subject to the rules.


oh and read the pdf, LH didnt seemingly do anything untoward.

 

There's the Ron we all know and love...wrong, as ever

Now I know you are healing, bro!

 

I'm just hoping this may shut up Lauda and Stewart! Moss I'm willing to forgive: a rare error of judgement on his part.

 

ya' and plainly between STR-FERRARI and SPYKER-FERRARI....can anyone say RD's Worst wet-dream sandwich ever?
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Why? And what is?



>oh and read the pdf, LH didnt seemingly do anything untoward.

If you're british.

At minimum he and his dad opened the can of worms.
Ironically he has also kept McL afloat.

An McL driver may win this WDC but
they're an amalgam of nematodes really.

 

It would be much simpler (and admirable) to state - Irrespective of what McL did/does, I will stick by them.
These ever widening comparisons and excuses are irrelevant.

 

ok, here is a segway: Renault found with 3 CDs worth of Mclaren data: What did they do: they turned it over to McL, and are helping them, and will tell the FIA if necessary......McLaren's staff should be taking notes at this point on how to truly handle ill received data.

http://www.totalf1.com/view-article.php?newsid=226809


The matter first came to light at McLaren when the team did a thorough review of its IT systems in an attempt to see whether any information relating to Ferrari and Nigel Stepney had been passed around.

During that search it was discovered that a team member who had subsequently moved to Renault had downloaded information. It’s believed that he took three CDs of data with him to Renault.

On becoming aware via a source that McLaren was already conducting an investigation into the matter, Briatore personally approached Ron Dennis at Monza and volunteered that Renault had indeed obtained some McLaren information.

We understand that the initial “shopping list” of information he offered did not entirely match up with that already compiled by McLaren as being copied. Subsequently Renault has added further items to its original list.

Questioned on the subject at the FIA press conference on Friday, Briatore said, “I think McLaren was judged by the World Council, and there was enough evidence to find McLaren guilty – it’s as simple as that. I don’t want, at this moment [to talk] about Renault because, first, we are not being investigated, second we give all our evidence to McLaren and to Mr. Mosley and to the Federation.”

The matter is now being discussed by lawyers representing to the two teams. Curiously thus far there has been no indication from the FIA that it will pursue a case against Renault.

 

did you not read the other things you posted yourself ?

"On becoming aware via a source that McLaren was already conducting an investigation into the matter, Briatore personally approached Ron Dennis at Monza and volunteered that Renault had indeed obtained some McLaren information"

"We understand that the initial “shopping list” of information he offered did not entirely match up with that already compiled by McLaren as being copied. Subsequently Renault has added further items to its original list."

so they didnt actually "just give it back"
they sat on it/used it/ignored it/pretended it didnt exist -
it wasnt until they found out McLaren was conducting an investigation into the matter of a staff member downloading info and then leaving for renault that they decided to give it back and even then he didnt give it all back

thats not whiter than white - thats realising the sh*t has hit the fan once this season and trying to cya.

 

Yeah, that was not from the technical dossier though. That was just between two individuals. I assume this is extremely common between teams and the primary way information travels in F1.

 

iirc that was how the "illegal floor" was discovered

 

Yeah, $100M for talking between individuals. Harsh maybe?

 

With being buried with work, sick for a day, looking after little George who just got five shots on Tuesday and has been a bit miserable the last few days, and wanting to hold off until the WMSC had the hearing and released the report and penalty, I decided to hold off on commenting on this whole situation.

First, despite the fact that I have been and might continue to be a big Fernando Alonso fan, I have to say that I am really disappointed with him. The fact that he knew about the information coming from Pedro De la Rosa was attributable to the Coughlan/Stepney relationship and didn't reveal it to Ron in July when the whole matter came to light bothers me. Bad news never gets better with time and both Fernando and Pedro should have told Ron. Regardless of what happened with qualifying at Hungary, Fernando should not have kept quiet on the facts and then tried to use the infomation to get his way within the team. I don't think Ron handled the whole situation right as it relates to Lewis not obeying team orders, and the fact that Ron did not discipline Lewis really rattled Fernando's cage more than anything else thereby reinforcing Fernando's perception of favortism towards Lewis by the team at Fernando's expense. That being said, kudos to Ron to not let an employee try to use information unfairly against him, but if his drivers are going to be treated as "equals', then they need to be punished as equals. In all honesty, I can still understand why Fernando is so pissed with what happened at Hungary but I don't like how he went about rectifying the situation. I really don't know yet if I will root for Fernando as I did before but I do wish him much success, and I really hope he comes to grips with his emotions and becomes as mature out of the car as he is in the car. I hope he does not win the WDC this year, although I think he will, because I don't want his name to bear the asterick that so many people will attribute to this year'd WDC. His problem now, though, is that if he tries to exercise the escape clause in his contract, Fernando may be in a position that since he may be deemed to have been materially involved in the scandal that brought disrepute to the team that he cannot benefit from any such clause that would release him as a result of the disrepute. If Ron feels strongly enough about the matter he could very well take legal action against Fernando, Pedro, Coughlan and whomever else was involved. If Ron in fact had no personal knowledge of what was going on, I wouldn't be surprised to see him do that. Fernando may very well be stuck at McLaren next year.

I really don't like Lewis Hamilton anymore because he comes across as so Eddie Haskell like to me, all goody goody when the cameras are on him but his unwillingness to comply with team orders at Hungary showed his real colors, and the fact that he doesn't have Fernando's car setup to copy anymore will really hurt him and nullify his wunderkind reputation.

As far as Ferrari is concerned, I don't blame them for Stepney taking the documents. That was up to Stepney and Coughlan, etc. I do believe, however, that neither Kimi nor Felipe have exhibited the desire or performance neccessary to become world champion, and Ferrari has let them both down on the occasions that they had to win valuable points. Even if both McLaren drivers had been docked 20 points, which may have been the right thing to do, I dont think that either Ferrari driver would still have been able to win the WDC and that would have been a great embarassment. Ferrari's longer wheelbase car has really missed out on a number of tracks this year and to get spanked the way they did at Monza last week indicates that their car development programme may really be missing something. I hope Kimi wins the WDC this year just for the fact that he would wipe away the stigma that would otherwise be attached to the WDC by sheer performance and determination. I just don't think he has it in him.

Last, there are several aspects of the whole scandal that still bother me. I'm not saying that the entire thing was a witch hunt against Ron Dennis; i think it had some merit but the means by which the FIA only investigated McLaren is troublesome. As I have said before, I cannot believe that the most important figure in this whole clusterfnck, Nigel Stepney himself, was not called to testify before the WMSC. He has repeatedly said that Coughlin did not get the documents from him, and they should at least had the invesigative curiosity to see if anyone else was involved on the Ferrari side. I also truly believe that after the end of the season Nigel is going to reveal spying and documents transfer similar or equal to what has transpired here this season, and only then will the FIA hear the matter after it is too late to do anything or when it will be considered of little consequence.

I also don't like the fact that during this latest episode of the soap opera that it was determined that Pedro de la Rosa may have worked with the Bridgestone representative to work on tire development as a result of information obtained from Stepney, but that representative wasn't called to testify or even asked to provide any information about what he worked on with Pedro. I also think that the FIA is afraid that they may uncover evidence that indicates certain information from Bridgestone may have been given only to Ferrari. It's not just a matter of whom the FIA spoke to, but also a matter of whom they haven't called up yet that makes me believe that there is more out there, and many of the "aggrieved" may find themselves on the sharp end of an investigation.

For me, it comes down to this: if Ferrari and their drivers do not put out solid, mistake free performances during the last 4 races, then they can't blame McLaren for their own sub-par performance. I really don't think that McLaren needed to use the information from Stepney to win but apparently some of the team members within McLaren did, and in any case, the information in the Ferrari materials hardly was the source for McLaren's improved reliability. A $100M penalty will get anyone's attention and the FIA may have chosen to make an example of McLaren to the other teams in case of future transgressions. If that is the cost of cleaning up the sport then so be it, I just don't think that all teams are being treated equally. Fortunately the FIA did not ban McLaren for 2008 because I really think that both the German and British GPs would have suffered had McLaren Mercedes not been present, and if the FIA is sincere in wanting to keep those races then they really could not have afforded to boot McLaren for an entire year.