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FF PTU Design Flaw.

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by officeline, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. Guilhermerossi1990

    Jan 8, 2020
    32
    Modesto, CA
    Full Name:
    Guilherme Rossi
    When you start the car, press the Reverse button, makes the DSG oil to overflow the transmission reservoir by the driver side headlight.


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  2. Guilhermerossi1990

    Jan 8, 2020
    32
    Modesto, CA
    Full Name:
    Guilherme Rossi
    The PTU is in the front of the car. I don’t think your problem is related to the PTU, probably the rear differential.


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  3. Guilhermerossi1990

    Jan 8, 2020
    32
    Modesto, CA
    Full Name:
    Guilherme Rossi
    I wish that was possible with the FF. Too many sensors.


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  4. Guilhermerossi1990

    Jan 8, 2020
    32
    Modesto, CA
    Full Name:
    Guilherme Rossi
    As a piece of information to all the forum members, my 2016 Ferrari FF was under warranty when I had the PTU issues. Ferrari declined the warranty service stating I misused the vehicle, that the car has been pushed very hard and for that reason Ferrari on North America canceled my manufacturer warranty. I guess you should drive a Ferrari like a Toyota Prius to avoid losing the warranty.


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  5. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2015
    279
    The Netherlands
    Man that sucks. This is the first I’ve heard of Ferrari refusing to honour a Gearbox warranty. If you don’t mind sharing, please can you tell us how they determined that you had been ‘misusing’ the car and what did they define as ‘misuse’? I didn’t check the small print in my NP warranty as I presumed the drivetrain and engine would be covered.

    I’ve had them fail to honour a gearbox manual over-ride problem and a fuel pump problem but weasel words mean those specific parts aren’t covered.

    I now understand your anger and frustration towards Ferrari a bit better as well. I would be furious in your position.
     
  6. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    11,986
    I’ve never heard of that happening to anyone.

    just to be clear - are we now saying that starting the car and putting it in reverse causes a ptu issue?
     
  7. willcrook

    willcrook Formula 3

    Feb 3, 2009
    1,105
    UK
    that's nuts.
     
  8. FFantastic

    FFantastic Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 23, 2015
    790
    UK Riviera
    I think I, and many others, would very much like that point to be expanded. Plus what is considered misuse and driven very hard. Was this the poster's submission or an assumption by the dealer based on knowledge of the poster's driving, ie speed trials, track days etc. If the poster would be happy to inform us more on this, please.
    Meridien Modena in the UK have again confirmed they have never changed a ptu and they have sold quite a few of each.

    This shroud hanging over the FF and Lusso could seriously impact on values so clarity is paramount.
     
  9. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2013
    4,766
    Weston, MA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    That's incredible. Unless you professionally raced it on a track (and who does that with a FF), aren't all owners expected to push the car hard?

    I mean my steering wheel has red lights that start to kick in at 5400, then additional lights at 6050, 6700, 7350 and 8100. Why would they have that option if they didn't expect a driver to rev the engine?

    Also, thanks for responding to my question about reverse. So basically you're saying you are doing damage every time you put the car in reverse?
     
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  10. randkin

    randkin Formula 3

    Aug 2, 2015
    1,161
    Somis, CA
    Full Name:
    Randy
    Yes I just talked to the F-dealer yesterday about a new Lusso V12 and he told me ALL the V8 turbos were two wheel drive.
     
  11. m5shiv

    m5shiv Formula Junior

    Feb 25, 2013
    736
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Shiv
    It's actually outrageous, and most likely illegal in CA under consumer protection law.
     
  12. mthompson2376

    mthompson2376 Karting

    Feb 2, 2017
    114
    North East England
    Full Name:
    Mark Thompson
    Fellow Fezza owners, I have been close to buying an FF a couple of times as I have a couple of kids and really would like a daily Fcar, I own an F12 and simply love it, especially the V12, but it’s simply not an everyday car, not in the North of England,

    I would have pulled the trigger a while ago and bought one, should it not have been for the PTU failures.

    My questions to those that have experience or an accurate view are

    1. Approximately what % have failed ? (Seems to be lots of threads failing at 20k mileage)

    2. Have any failed after warranty replacement ? (Double failure - my reasoning for the question is, is a repaired car a safer bet)

    3. Do I just steer clear of the 4WD PTU system and opt for a V8 LussoT ? (I see in the Uk, second hand LussoT’s are almost the same price as the V12 and I am curious to why this is the case - are people aligning with this thinking)

    4. I really love the V12’s but just don’t want the problems, I already have a few Ferrari’s....

    Help , really do love the FF / Lusso, I have had a go on track, and road and they are just a perfect all round machine.




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  13. Natkingcolebasket69

    Rossa Subscribed

    The ray of hope;)


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  14. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2015
    279
    The Netherlands
    #189 ANOpax, Jan 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
    Mark, if you don’t want the problems, then you’ve answered your own question 3. Get the Lusso T. I don’t think the price parity between Lusso and Lusso T is due to the PTU. The Lusso T drives differently and some prefer that.

    to answer your other questions;

    1. there are conflicting data sources. FFantastic say that Meridian have never replaced a PTU. Motob who worked at Ferrari SF said their failure rate was 5% pa. Guilherme who is a dissatisfied customer of Ferrari SF claims that the 2019 failure rate was 12.5%. TTforcefed says his dealer has only replaced 2-3. There is a spreadsheet kicking earlier in this thread from Jaguar36 from which you can see who has reported PTU issues. There are 13 on the sheet and two more have been reported since he posted it. I’m not sure that mileage or age is a factor as it can seemingly affect new cars as much as old ones. While low mileage seems to be the norm in the US and U.K., there is a large population of cars in Europe which have racked up significance miles and we don’t see those owners reporting problems on here.

    So, not everyone posts on here when they have a problem, but 15 recorded instances of failure out of c4,000 cars made makes you wonder how bad the problem really is. It’s certainly not as bad as the furore would suggest. Even if only 5% of FF/Lusso owners know about FChat, then the failure rate is 7% over 9 years since launch. My take is that the problem is less prevalent than is made out - but if you’re unlucky enough to be hit, it’ll hit your wallet hard.

    2 there is only one suspected double failure of a PTU but it’s not confirmed as the Swedish service record is ambiguous as to whether the front (PTU) or rear (DCT) gearboxes were involved.
     
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  15. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2015
    279
    The Netherlands
    I’ll also post what Safe4now of Dallas FW Ferrari had to say about PTU failure.


     
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  16. willcrook

    willcrook Formula 3

    Feb 3, 2009
    1,105
    UK
    there was someone on here that took their 458 spec on a track day, had a brake issue then took it to their dealer who said they couldn't do anything about it under warranty as they admitted it was on a track day (fair play to the owner for being straight up honest with them). After some arguing the conclusion was Ferrari's official stance is these cars are not meant to be driven on tracks, which I find absolutely insulting.
     
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  17. Bamsefar

    Bamsefar Formula Junior

    Nov 26, 2012
    338
    Sweden
    If anyone has connections to pull the service history the ID is ZFF73SKB000184147

    Edit: I know that particular FF did see some serious track time btw...
     
  18. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2015
    279
    The Netherlands
    So now we know that two of the reported failures are due to track use. I wonder if that’s why Ferrari declined Guilherme’s warranty claim as well?
     
  19. FFantastic

    FFantastic Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 23, 2015
    790
    UK Riviera
    That is the point I'm making in that the FF and Lusso was designed for the serious Grand Touring user not for the serious track day buyer. Without doubt they go well on a track as I have personally enjoyed (on track days organised by Ferrari who provide the cars) but in designing a clever 4 wheel drive system to purely enhance the all weather ability of the car it's not surprising it has an Achilles heel. As Ferrari's power warranty and most third party powertrain warranties would cover engines & gearboxes etc I see an obvious route to peace of mind unless as in ANOpax's photo the clear evidence of abuse negates the claim. Horses for courses seems unusually apt.
     
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  20. FFantastic

    FFantastic Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 23, 2015
    790
    UK Riviera
    Not so with Meridien, I know of a number of their customers who enjoy taking their cars on trackdays and have had no issues with warranty claims.
     
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  21. Jaguar36

    Jaguar36 Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2010
    364
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    Here's an updated sheet:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    I also added a little graph showing the average mileage (15,200) and the standard deviation (gray bar). It shows that there isn't a real clear trend in failure vs mileage. FF/Lusso's tend to get driven more than your average Ferrari. The average mileage on an FF for sale right now on cars.com is 15,000 miles. That would suggest that someone would have had a double failure by now, if Ferrari hasn't improved things. The fact that there were two Lusso's with failures though implies that at least the early Lusso's have the same issue. Perhaps it was fixed later on though. As for percentage of affected cars, its going to be impossible to say, but it sounds like its in the low single digit percentages.

    The track usage (or other 'misuse) throws a bit of a wrench into it though. How long would you expect a transmission to last between rebuilds on a heavily tracked car?

    As for the failure itself, GTE Engineering now offers a rebuild service for the PTU. I reached out to them, and although they didn't seem willing to provide any more information on frequency or what the actual failure is (or even if its always the same failure) they did say that a rebuild would cost between $6k and $55k.

    If it was me, it wouldn't scare me off, but I would add ~$10k to the cost of an FF if I was comparing it to another model. Even then they're tremendous bargains though!
     
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  22. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2015
    279
    The Netherlands
    #197 ANOpax, Jan 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
    Thanks for the updated sheet Jaguar36. I think officeline's car is a 2017 and Asthenia's is a 2016 based on their postings. I've done a quick tally of the cars which we know the age of (inc the two Belgian ones) and the average failure occurs when the car is c.4 years old.
    Maybe you could run a mileage vs age at time of failure chart and see what the R-squared is. I suspect it's quite low.

    EDIT: And as an addendum to Mark's question about failure rates, Barry K's car was the first his dealer had seen after selling over 30 FF/Lussos
     
  23. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

    May 18, 2011
    1,916
    Kentucky
    Full Name:
    Anir
    When we purchased the secondhand TM F12, our dealer actually gifted us a track day so that we could enjoy the Ferrari unencumbered. I’ve tracked the FF, F12, and 812SF, and will likely do the same with the Pista. Fortunately, we never had PTU problems at 22,000 miles but I only tracked it twice. At about 4,200 lbs, the track really wasn’t its natural element. We were never told by our dealer that tracking the Ferraris might invalidate any aspect of the warranty.

    When we spec’d the TM Pista in Maranello, we were given a hint that the new CF wheels might not be the best option if we wanted to put tens of thousands of miles on the car. The factory never said anything specifically about tracking the CF wheels but I’ve heard that may not be recommended? We chose the forged wheels due to the uncertainty.

    I do think the PTU issue is unfortunately a legitimate concern and it factored into my decision to buy the extended warranty in recent years.
     
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  24. FFantastic

    FFantastic Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 23, 2015
    790
    UK Riviera
    Good info, many thanks.

    I would still like to hear more about the suggestion from Guilherme that putting the car into reverse after starting somehow exacerbates the problem.
     
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  25. jay910

    jay910 Rookie

    Mar 4, 2010
    10
    Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Alan
    The red FF with PTU failure appear to be a rental, thus, result in warranty denied.
     

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