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FF PTU Design Flaw.

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by officeline, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. Guilhermerossi1990

    Jan 8, 2020
    32
    Modesto, CA
    Full Name:
    Guilherme Rossi
    I bought a new one so I can swap parts and see exactly what part is going bad on mine. I replaced the whole PTU with an exception of the little hydraulic box with the actuators. I used my old hydraulic box and actuators on the new PTU and I found that the problem still there believe it or not. So now I’m going to eliminate the hydraulic box with the actuator by testing each one and also test the oil pump and pressure regulator for the PTU that were also not replaced with the installation of the new PTU. The saga continues tomorrow..... Good news is that we might be safe $$$ and the PTU might not be the issue for most of us. I will find out! Here is a picture of the hydraulic box with actuators: Image Unavailable, Please Login


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  2. Guilhermerossi1990

    Jan 8, 2020
    32
    Modesto, CA
    Full Name:
    Guilherme Rossi
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login



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  3. andyrichter

    andyrichter Karting

    Jul 18, 2017
    91
    Oahu
    Holy cow! You are a war hero. Ferrari owes you a complementary PTU for all you’ve done if they intend to use your discoveries. In fact I would be ashamed of myself as a company if its negligence resulted in customers taking on what Ferrari doesn’t want to dirty its hands with. You are a very brave and patient man to do this.
     
  4. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2015
    281
    The Netherlands
    Hi Guilherme, have you made any further progress with your investigation?

    For everyone's information, I have taken Jaguar36's base data and with some detective work, have managed to refine it and fill in most of the blanks.
    As a result, the dataset is starting to look meaningful with 12 PTU failures where we know both age and mileage at the point of failure. With age, I've had to assume that cars were registered in June of the year of registration but this is open to error so the average age at the point of failure is approximate.

    The conclusion is that there is no correlation between age and mileage when it comes to PTU failure.
    The average miles at point of failure is 13,300 with a standard deviation of 7,400 miles (12 cars in dataset)
    The average age at point of failure is 4.2 years with a standard deviation of 1.7 years (15 cars in dataset)

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  5. jac

    jac Karting

    Nov 4, 2005
    95
    Full Name:
    jack cohen
    Well my problem was not the ptu but the rear transmission speed sensor. 15 labor hours later tranny out then back in all fixed. No charge under the power warranty. However this ends my love affair with my ff. I have had it for around 120 days with 50 or so being in the shop. Totally unacceptable for my daily driver. My 1975 triumph tr6 is more reliable:) Miller has been awesome even giving me a full price refund towards a 17 continental gt. They even called me multiple times about my issues. Very good dealer. I still have my 458 spider to play with so I'll still be around but not on the 12 cylinder side until the gts spiders drop in price:) all the best jack
     
  6. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2015
    281
    The Netherlands
    That’s bittersweet. Sorry to see you leave the V12 fold but glad that it was a DCT issue (Which can affect 458s too!) and not a PTU problem.
     
  7. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
    12,024
    Even with the ffs being hung up sometimes they are still worth keeping as they’re so easy to love when they’re working
     
  8. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
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    What wld it gave cost if u didn’t have warranty? 7500ish? 15 hrs of labor is 2700 so not bad at all.
     
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  9. jac

    jac Karting

    Nov 4, 2005
    95
    Full Name:
    jack cohen
    Yes the service dept leader mentioned the same thing. At least with my 458 I can grab the keys of any of my other summer cars and still have something fun to drive when they have to go for service. I have to have 4wd to get up and down the driveway in the winter. Have snow now as I'm typing. Going from a ff to a f350 diesel is a bummer when the ff was in the shop.
     
  10. jac

    jac Karting

    Nov 4, 2005
    95
    Full Name:
    jack cohen
    Miller is around 200 per hour labor. it did need a part or 2. If I would have had to pay I agree not too bad however I would be pissed off . The power warranty also took care of 2 other issues also so remember it wasn't just this one. I love the car I just couldn't deal with the downtime. The power warranty made it so I am very happy. Negotiated the cost into the deal. 3 times into and out of the dealer that cost $0 I am happy with Ferrari I a
    Miller is like 200 per so 3k plus parts. Not bad at all I just couldn't deal with the downtime. What could possibly go wrong with a Bentley lol. Maybe jumping from the frying pan into the fire.
     
  11. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
    12,024
    I hear ya. For me winter is a push since I seem to always have a suv lying around.

    And btw this is the exact reason ferrari will fail if they try doing an suv. People expect their suvs to work all the time. Imagine having ff hang up issues with a true suv? No way ppl will put up with it and it’s inevitable!
     
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  12. jac

    jac Karting

    Nov 4, 2005
    95
    Full Name:
    jack cohen
    Good call. My experience is a good example of what Ferrari needs to fix for the SUV. I am not going to plug it in every day to keep the battery charged. The battery can't die after leaving it at an airport. I can deal with unreliability in my summer toys but not my daily driver. I like many others want an exciting fun daily driver. My 911 c4 targa was great I wanted to crank it up to 11 with the ff. Didn't work out. Backing off down to a Bentley. If that doesn't work I'll try a big audi bmw merc sedan or coupe, had them all in the past at least they worked. 1 thing Ferrari did right was the warranty. I am very happy with my dealer and Ferrari corporate even if it didnt work out.
     
  13. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2013
    4,777
    Weston, MA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    I don't disagree, but look how many people buy a Range Rover. You want to talk about UN-reliablity. :D
     
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  14. HBstig

    HBstig Karting
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 3, 2019
    95
    Full Name:
    HBstig
    I just bought an FF with 7k miles on it. Is PTU failure common for all these cars? Should I be buying extended warranty?

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  15. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    Mar 15, 2012
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    San Antonio, Texas
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    George Pepper
    Yes, but that would be equally true for a 458, F12, 488, or 812SF.
     
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  16. Radu

    Radu Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2018
    33
    Netherlands
    Are F12 and 812 as likely to incur high-cost maintenance as FF/GTC4Lusso V12 if the worse comes to worst (i.e. PTU failure for the latter)? I haven't read as many F12 threads as I did FF/GCT4Lusso V12, but I seem to see a lot less problems on the cars of these 2 generations which don't have the 4RM. Is it just an impression?
     
  17. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    Mar 15, 2012
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    George Pepper
    I would not buy any Ferrari that has an available warranty without buying the warranty. How lucky do you feel?
     
  18. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
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    at 7k a year its largely a suckers bet. just self insure and pay IF it happens. burning 21k for 3 years is not worth it...
     
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  19. Radu

    Radu Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2018
    33
    Netherlands
    I really am not suggesting warranty is to be avoided, and I personally would buy it, so there's no need to be combative! And I feel rather unlucky in general.
    I am simply trying to clarify whether your statement that buying an extended warranty is a good idea is "equally true for a 458, F12, 488, or 812SF" actually implies that the risk x cost on non-4RM cars is equal to that on the 4RM cars, or is just a piece of advice. (I actually don't care about 458/488, just FF/GTC4Lusso V12 versus F12/812).
    You have 16K posts on this forum and have been around for 8 years almost now, that's why I wanted to get the benefit of your overview on the relative frequency and impact of issues with the two types of cars. Thanks.
     
  20. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
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    #270 ttforcefed, Feb 11, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
    no need to have warranty.
    it should probably come down to expected miles. at 4k a year and less, no warranty. at 10k miles a year then maybe its worth it.
     
  21. Jaguar36

    Jaguar36 Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2010
    364
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    As with any extended warranty the company that is offering it has far more data than you do, and prices it so that they make a profit. So you're not only paying all the overhead for Ferrari to administrate the warranty program, but the profit too. The only reason you should ever by insurance for anything (Beside because the law says you need to) is if you don't have the cash available to cover a the results of the failure. If you are buying an FF I would hope that you are financially stable enough to be able to afford a large out of pocket expense and therefore you are much better off taking the warranty cost and investing it rather than giving it to Ferrari.

    In addition, best guess based on the forum postings and anecdotal service comments is that the PTU failure has a low single digit percentage chance of failure. No way would the warranty make sense just for the PTU alone. The V12 seems pretty bulletproof. The DCT does seem to have a fair number of failures though.

    Lastly, even if the PTU does fail, a good indy shop can pull it and have it rebuilt for far less than the ~$20k Ferrari wants to fix it.
     
  22. Radu

    Radu Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2018
    33
    Netherlands
    Jaguar, I appreciate you taking the time to post your thoughts on the matter, however, personal opinion on insurance, its usefulness and pricing, or one's financial stability isn't what I asked for, but instead, the cost and risk of F12/812 vs FF/GCT4Lusso based on experience and as viewed via the forum. We can debate the rest separately.
     
  23. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
    12,024
    less than 3 percent of ptus have needed to be replaced is my guess...
     
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  24. Radu

    Radu Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2018
    33
    Netherlands
    That's the thing, there are loads of threads on the PTU stuff, but then again, the statistics make it look much less scary, although quite random - no correlation has been found between chance of occurrence and car manufacture year or mileage...
    I've seen very few threads on what might be termed F12 "horror stories", but it may be because I missed them, or didn't pay attention. So what I'm asking for is - can anyone say whether they're in the same boat, so to speak? As in, as likely for things to break, and when they do, are the things just as big of deal?
     
  25. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
    12,024
    im not following your question - obviously the f12 doesn't have a ptu so that risk is zero for that car. the only car that has a ptu is the FF/lusso
     

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