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Ferraris at KENO Bros. Auction NY 19 November 2015

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Marcel Massini, Nov 18, 2015.

  1. BBBBBBB

    BBBBBBB Formula Junior

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  2. Lusso123

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    I was there.

    The layout was very good, some might even say great, and I would like to point out that there were some of the cars right in the auction room.

    Marcel's assessment is spot on, and I could also add a lot to it along with what everyone has said. A number of acquaintances, and some friends had consigned cars. I could not find many happy faces.....well, except for the few who actually bought cars, and of course they all seemed to have bought at good 'discount' prices! Some consignors said that they were sorry they had put any cars in. Of course with RM unexpectedly 'pulling the rug out' by changing their date....that certainly eliminated some buyers.

    I will say though, that the overall presentation, and attention to many visual details was excellent, but there were also other very important details that were either overlooked or not paid much or enough attention to, and of course there were technical glitches that were noticed and others that were not. "Inconsistent" could be a key word to use.

    I also met with the auctioneer prior to the start of the auction, and spoke with him again after my "no sale" item. He was a nice fellow, but OMG..... painful to listen to throughout the evening, just no energy or enough personality to get buyers interested, etc, etc......

    I looked at the results list here, and I'm not sure that some of the cars listed as sold were truly sold. I could be wrong, but am not convinced about all of them.

    Regarding the organization....... Based on my personal observations....there were many problems with too many things, from early on in the putting together of this auction to the end. I could write too many pages on this, and that is just from what I experienced and observed. Some of the employed "Team" should not be working there or anywhere else IMO.

    The Automobilia was handled VERY poorly from when they consigned lots through buying and paying at the venue. I bought some, and I also consigned the Conti Maserati model, which like the Wanlass bronze sculpture, and the Helck oil painting failed to sell, let alone come close to their reserves.
     
  3. BBBBBBB

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    Agree. There seems to be a difference between the KENO list and the reality.

    This is unfortunately not unusual for auction houses: house bids, house "sold", etc.

    Imho: let us not forget how many auction scams and auction frauds history until literally today has seen, i always say auction houses are the second eldest business and close to the oldest business of the world...

    Ben
     
  4. Rory J

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    Marcel, in talking with various Keno Bros auction personnel at the venue, they could not say enough of your documentation (I stop short of using the term "endorsement") of several Ferrari lots, I think the 212 was among them. What role did you play with the auction house? Did they just rely on your previous documentation or did you refresh your perspective during this auction? Thanks very much, just a curious patron.

     
  5. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    #55 Marcel Massini, Nov 22, 2015
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    I know Leigh and Leslie Keno personally (photo below taken January 2015 Cavallino, in front of 0409 EU). I have no idea what documentation they relied on or not. I did not refresh my perspective during the auction. My previous comment (post #35) is my general personal view. In the past 40 years I have attended many dozens of auctions all over the planet. I really do think that there are (generally) way too many (classic car) auctions and nowadays it is extremely difficult to find good, rare and especially FRESH Ferraris for an auction. As has already been mentioned here, there is a large number of other elements/points too that could make an auction successful. To name a few: Timing, location, auctioneer, selection of cars, research and provenance, cataloging, marketing activities and promotion, seller's expectations and capability/willingness of auction house to bring consignors down to earth, and many many other key points.

    Marcel Massini
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  6. Wolf

    Wolf Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2003
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    Did anyone get the chassis number of teh F40? It was missing on the Keno website. Thanks.

    Regards

    Wolfi
     
  7. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    85336.

    Marcel Massini
     
  8. ARTNNYC

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    A new auction house/ company does not have the leverage of an established one to be aggressive with consignors in demanding realistic reserves. They need consignments and therefore promise the moon. I worked at Christies for two years and have good knowledge of how this works.
    I also think their reserve numbers had WAY to much of a range with estimates such as 750k-1.3m for the Bizzarrini with the high number appeasing the consignor and the lower figure representing a semi-realistic price.
     
  9. Marcel Massini

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    It is not so much about promising the moon in this case. I know of one of the consigners in the case of the Keno Bros auction who was absolutely totally resistant against any serious consulting. That consignor just doesn't get it. The more he offers his car all over the planet and the longer he cannot sell it (does he really want to let it go???) the worse the reputation of the car becomes. This is a very small world and everybody knows each other and after a short time people are scratching their heads asking why a car didn't sell. Buyers are not stupid, consignors sometimes are. Many owners/consignors haven't really realised yet that the market HAS changed, slowed down, stabilized. Guys get real, please, and come back to earth. The party is over, unless you have something REALLY special and exciting and FRESH for the market.

    Marcel Massini
     
  10. ARTNNYC

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    Exact same case as in the art world!
     
  11. Bradwilliams

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    Has the fine art started decreasing in value substantially yet?
     
  12. Lusso123

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    Yes, definitely too much of a spread with the estimates, which also appeared to be very optimistic.
     
  13. Lusso123

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    +1 !!! I agree completely.
     
  14. Ferrari 308 Vetro

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    Thank you Marcel, I was there and I agree with you.
     
  15. cnpapa24

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    One thing to note when I was watching the auction on the web, it said 70 other people were watching online. They simply didn't have enough people interested in the event, in addition to the other very valid points made in this thread.
     
  16. BBBBBBB

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    Youtube or live.proxibid.com ?
    Ben
     
  17. cnpapa24

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    I clicked on the weblink from the site, which I believe took me to YouTube.
     
  18. ARTNNYC

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    The art market is not really decreasing but I would say stabilizing. Exceptional items will still achieve stratospheric results such as the Modigliani painting that sold for 170.4 million two weeks ago at Christies.
     
  19. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    It seems the same thing for cars. Excellent points throughout the thread. Thank you all for sharing.
     
  20. Timmmmmmmmmmy

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    What Marcel said was absolutely accurate. You would have to think that trying to piggyback on the RM auction (or any other business) is not a long-term business model. As for other comments I agree that the search for new and fresh things to buy is really where the market is at. Many vendors are still looking to gain value on their investment auto and don't want to submit to market reality, and FWIW if you don't need the money, keep the car as the market will always rebound in 2, 5 or 10 years the car will likely be worth much more. If you need the cash, then take a haircut and make the deal. Next month, the RM auction has several gorgeous cars that are $1 - 3 million and good value because they aren't trophy automobiles and won't show much value growth for years too come. The two big lots though are fresh to market, very limited production and from two of the most desirable makers of sports racing cars, Ferrari and Aston. If you are a collector that doesn't have an ex Fangio 290MM or a Aston DB4 Zagato you would be seriously considering stumping up the wads of cash. Same thing in the art market and just about every other. Hell Phillips sold a Patek Philippe watch for $7 million USD two weekends ago so there is a lot of money looking for a trophy piece that is different to what ever other billionaire owns...............

    I would be saddened if this is the last Keno auction and I hope they learn from this and return in 6 months or a year having learnt the lesson(s) from this auction....... Perhaps roll out something entirely different, an all Lamborghini auction of something?
     
  21. Cargirl_

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    Sometimes Marcel it is hard for the sellers to come back to earth when they see a car like the one they are selling has gotten a record breaking, never before achieved amount at auction. A Miracle. That crazy auction result changes everything whether it is for a high-end Ferrari or an Arnolt-Bristol. It's hard to make the seller realize those are pipe dream prices. But if you can get the seller to be reasonable you can start to correct the market and others will eventually follow suit. After all, those sellers are buyers too. So the shoes on the other foot. At least that's what I tell my sellers.
     
  22. Foncool

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    Here is something to think about, the next Keno Brothers auction is scheduled for June in Hershey at The Elegance where they've teamed up with AACA. The Antique Automobile Club of America, where the word Antique is not in reference to the cars.
     
  23. Lusso123

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    I know this was directed to Marcel, but I would like to add that auction houses have complete control/discretion as to whether or not to consign anything. So if they felt that the reserves which relate to the estimates were unrealistic, they could have and should have either insisted on appropriately setting realistic values, or.....not accepted/consigned the car(s) in the first place. There was nothing forcing them to accept the lots that they had. Many sellers are unrealistic, but so are some car dealers and auction companies. There are and will always be sales that are anomalies in the collector car market as well as just about every other market. The auction house does have a responsibility with regard to this and to educating and informing its clients - consignors and buyers.
     
  24. Timmmmmmmmmmy

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    All very good fair comments, although I would note that if the Keno brothers didn't accept consignments at steep reserves they may have had an auction with very few cars. Not too many sellers want to be told your car is not worth as much as you think or your car needs a 100k restoration and especially don't want to be told 'I know you are comparing your un-serviced, multiple owner, wrong colour respray not very special Miura with the best Miura and I know that one sold for $5 million dollars but yours is actually only worth $500k...... or whatever variation and auctions NEED consignments........
     
  25. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    #75 Marcel Massini, Nov 22, 2015
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    I do work with more than eight auction companies including Gooding, RM Sotheby's, Bonhams, Artcurial, Keno Bros., Russo & Steele, Mecum, plus other American and European firms and can assure you that the people in charge and all of their employees try everything and do their very best to make consignors realistic and bring them down to earth. A majority of the sellers (I can only speak for Ferraris) are still totally greedy and just don't get it. All they see is $$$$$$ and they also try everything to avoid paying the seller's commission. It is the consignors/sellers, NOT the auction houses, that are still dreaming. The auction companies are pretty experienced and have the business knowledge (not necessarily about individual cars but about the auction biz in general) and know what they are doing. As for the individual consignors (NOT some dealers) ......I said before, wake up guys, the party is over. Trees don't grow endlessly into the heavens.

    Marcel Massini
     

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