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Ferrari short seller claims exclusivity is over and Ferrari doomed

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by F430 Driver, Mar 4, 2020.

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Do you agree with the author of the article that exclusivity is over for Ferrari?

  1. I disagree with the author & think the days of Ferrari exclusivity are still alive and well!

    76 vote(s)
    41.8%
  2. I agree with the author and think exclusivity & the brand are sliding.

    106 vote(s)
    58.2%
  1. Fezza123

    Fezza123 Rookie

    Jul 16, 2016
    16

    Unfortunately only time will tell on whether they are able to sell out the production. Covid is going to hammer the 2nd hand market as buyers will want a deal, they sense blood. As it happens in the U.K. FERRARI make lots of money on then2nd hand market, they are not like a Porsche, they are not interested in making a couple of grand on a trade in they make 10-15% margin. As for the new cars well they are living off an order pipeline that predates Covid, if Covid persists and we go into an extended recession globally then I’m guessing they will NOT be able to sell out production without some form of investment in margin.....or put another way price reduction.
     
    vrsurgeon likes this.
  2. Jhobrien

    Jhobrien Rookie

    Sep 10, 2018
    6
    Full Name:
    J O’Brien
    The article is interesting from a couple perspectives. Exclusivity is in the eyes of the beholder. I lived in London for 10 years and knew on any Friday or Sat night in the summer the Asian and Middle Eastern boys would be racing all sorts of massively high HP and expensive cars around Kensington. Ferrari, Lamborghini, Buggati, K-seng, McLaren... you name it. All new and forever parked in front of Harrods. Newport Beach, not quite as bad, but FMOSocal sells a ton of them and they are plentiful on the streets.

    Now live between San Diego and KC - Don't see hardly any out in SD, but if you look at the local Ferrari repair shops - they are crammed with every vintage and style you can think of. In KC the FCA chapter has a robust membership and unbelievably in the area there are a massive amount of Ferrari's. This is not Newport Beach where you have to flash your cash, this is really laid back conservative folk of tremendous compassion. They are driven and driven a lot, but out on the back roads and wide open. With that said, they buy a ton of new ones right off the boat There is zero worry about exclusivity and members are constantly in the queue for new ones.

    With respect to Ferrari - I don't know the marketing folks or the bean counters, but I did get to know McLaren very well. They have tremendous analytics on demographics, cost and margins projections out 5 years. They know how much they want to make and have a well oiled plan how to do it. Ferrari is a business and would imagine the math is the math there as well. Things change over time and you can want to stay "exclusive" and also broke.

    Best guess is the author is trying to provoke a response from Ferrari owners, and for me personally I could care less. I love the cars and have tremendous fun in them. Kids constantly come up and ask to take photos and sit in the car. I have never experienced a bad encounter with kids or adults, except for the idiots in the BMWs and Dodge Chargers that somehow think I want to drag race or do 100 mph in rush hour and sprint in front of me to challenge. See it over and over. I just smile and carry on!
     
    tomc and F430 Driver like this.
  3. x z8

    x z8 Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    569
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Jeffrey
    A $200- 500k+ car is exclusive based on price. That doesn’t change. Producing more cars than can be absorbed devalues the cars and the perception of exclusivity. From that view- total fail and it will have long term ramifications for the company if they continue on this path.

    I still love the cars- and hate the bone headed engineers that continued for over 20 years to make interior parts that melt and become sticky. I am spending thousands of dollars to remove the gook- and many of the parts now look shiny and cheap on a car that cost over $300k. Ridiculous doesn’t describe the stupidity. Yet I own two?
     
    m5shiv likes this.
  4. PTG1

    PTG1 Formula Junior

    Oct 7, 2017
    429
    UK
    Full Name:
    Pete
    I'm not so sure the outcome will be exactly this, yes the 2nd hand market will take a pounding but, production is going to be down by at least a 3rd by the time this is over and I think lots of new car orders will be cancelled, this will mean far fewer new models on the road and then far fewer in the sm2nd hand market, if you think current line up is going to have a short production run its going to be even shorter. I don't think values will be that badly hit if the production is lower but who knows how bad this coronavirus business is going to get, it's only just starting really in Europe and the US. Hopefully we all come out better then expected

    Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
     
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  5. Douglas52

    Douglas52 Rookie

    May 5, 2015
    17
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Douglas
     
  6. Douglas52

    Douglas52 Rookie

    May 5, 2015
    17
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Douglas
    In the US as of February 2020
    the average yearly income was $48,672.00/person before taxes.
    The top 5% of households, three quarters of whom had two income earners, had incomes of $166,200 or higher, with the top 10% having incomes well in excess of $100,000.
    The average house price in the US is $246,334.00
    The average mortgage is $1,100.00/month
    The average car price was $37,851.00
    The average Ferrari 458 price is about $200,000
    Driving a Ferrari isn't about who sees you in it, but how you see and feel yourself when you're in it.
    There will ALWAYS be newer, faster cars, more exclusive brands of limited production, but Ferraris are about passion, their racing history and the feeling you get when YOU are driving one.
    If you experience that same giddy childhood feeling you used to get when you saw a Ferrari and you can finally afford one, (and it doesn't matter how old or new the model is) then that's passion.
    If you don't get that feeling, and you just want to show people how much money you have, then paste your net worth on the front windshield of a Nissan Versa Sedan $12,815 (the least expensive new car in the US) because your not the customer that Enzo Ferrari had in mind when he started the company.
     
    tomc and F430 Driver like this.
  7. IloveGT

    IloveGT Formula Junior

    Oct 17, 2015
    800
    I agree with most, but I honestly don't think Ferrari today cares what kind of customer is paying for the car. Whatever Enzo thought 70 years ago absolutely is immaterial nowadays. In fact if Kylie Jenners or some trash youtubers can get the pista allocations, then we need to stop kidding ourselves and think Ferrari is still what it was before or even exclusive at all. Therefore, whether or not any of us are the customers Enzo wanted is really a moot point.
     
  8. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Moderator

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,591
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    How very eloquent and true.

    It reminded me that back in the day, Ferrari created something special, as the Grigio Ingrid color. Any day now, if Ferrari is to create a new color, chances are we’ll have a Grigio Justin Bieber or something to that effect.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
    RKZ841 likes this.
  9. albkid

    albkid Karting

    Jul 1, 2016
    242
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Doesn't that statement apply to the profile of many who purchase a Porsche, BMW, Lamborghini, Lexus LFA, the Acura NSX, Miata, many American and English vehicles of all types and costs, etc. It's a long lists of marques and vehicles as most marques have a group of passionate enthusiasts. I thought you were making a good though personal POV argument about passion until your last sentence. :D
     
  10. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 15, 2012
    5,405
    Exeter and Cirencester
    Full Name:
    John
    :eek::eek::D:D:D
     
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  11. Brian L

    Brian L Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 17, 2015
    1,931
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Brian
    Ferrari as it was ... is dead. 3 reasons.

    1. It was a private company and now it's a corporation. 10% or 100% it's the same thing. The company wants profit numbers on a regular schedule for the stock price. They want to sell MORE and EASIER. Corporation thinking is the opposite of Ferrari thinking. Enzo would not be pleased. Luca was not pleased. The Sweater killed it.

    2. Pinanfarina is dead. In house designs are not as beautiful, not as "Ferrari" ... it's more typical and more macho/Lambo/etc, nothing about the design says Ferrari. 458, F12 era was the end of the road in design. These LED rear lights are horrific, the modern wheel with the giant and clunky turn indicators is an embarrassment to Ferrari.

    Yes the cars are mechanically fantastic and reliable on a whole new level, but they are not as beautiful and It's over.

    3. Ferrari owners BARELY DRIVE these amazing new cars. It's pathetic. I had my FF on the track! You have no excuse. And I make less money than most owners for sure. You are not car people if you don't drive the f'ing cars. You are a rich collector of car shaped investments. Lame.

    Porsche owners at least drive the cars.
     
    x z8 and Dom like this.
  12. rmani

    rmani F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Nov 1, 2003
    7,059
    NJ
    Full Name:
    RMani
    It was not. You don't think Ferrari wants to sell 100k SUVs a year to enrich themselves at the cost of Enzo's dream? Just be patient...
     
  13. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2004
    6,897
    SF
    The day they started selling the large fender badges on the new production cars was the day they lost their soul.
     
    4cammer likes this.
  14. F430 Driver

    F430 Driver Formula Junior

    Apr 23, 2008
    434
    Central New Jersey
    So many Ferrari lovers and haters. I’m a data guy. Looking at their numbers pre coronavirus their strategy has been working great.
     
  15. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Moderator

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,591
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    If we push this line of thinking to an extreme, Ferrari can become some sort of Lotus:

    Born in England by the hand of Colin Chapman, the british Enzo Ferrari, now makes tones of money, owned by a Chinese consortium. Of the original soul of the company, only a hollow, meaningless original logo remains.

    If you’re a stock holder alone, I guess you’ll either be happy or don’t care. As a car enthusiast, you can’t help but feel that profits are great but the brand and all it ever stood for are long gone, buried six feet under.

    Of course Ferrari will live on. It’s one of the most profitable, powerful brands in the world. That, for me, isn’t the question. It’s HOW it will live on. In what molds. What made Ferrari special isn’t that it turned a profit: it turned the head of car’s enthusiasts and blew the mind of its owners. That what MADE the brand, not balance sheets.

    Perhaps no other company has such a strong emotional component to it. Its products are based on emotion. For other brands, perhaps it isn’t that important or critical to change focus and go for profit alone. Perhaps other brands don’t have such a strong tie with emotions. For Ferrari, losing that aura is a big deal. A bigger deal than for, lets say, Aston or Bentley.

    Maybe newer generations of Ferrari buyers won’t care. IMHO, that doesn’t take away from the fact that there is certainly an Enzo/Montezemolo Ferrari, and the current Marchionne/Elkann, NYSE Ferrari. Between the two, only the name remains the same.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
    Dom likes this.
  16. F430 Driver

    F430 Driver Formula Junior

    Apr 23, 2008
    434
    Central New Jersey
    What other car brand are you going to get the style, performance, reliability, emotion, service network and pedigree Ferrari offers?

    certainly not McLaren. Definitely not lotus. Porsche? Not even close. Bring a a 911 and a modern Ferrari to any show and the enthusiasm for Ferrari is without compare. Maybe if you go Buggati, Koenniggsegg, Pagani you get more exclusivity but you lose some of the other factors and pay 5x - 10x more.

    as somebody driving their third Ferrari and a fourth in the future I’m a fan. I could buy any of the aforementioned cars but they don’t have all the elements I desire or require as I listed above
     
    JTSE30 likes this.
  17. tfazio

    tfazio Formula 3
    Classified Subscribed

    Apr 20, 2004
    1,778
    Michigan
    Lotus is not making tons of money... Not even close. They have been struggling for years. Geely is giving them a ton of money to develop a few new cars in the future. Let's see if Geely's plans change due to the economic crisis. Don't get me wrong I am a big fan of Lotus and always have been but I do not see any scenario where Geely will ever recoup their investment in Lotus. How many new cars would Lotus have to sell to just recoup the billion plus-dollar investment? They hope to increase sales and sell 5,000 lotus automobiles eventually. I think that is highly unlikely especially with so many great options available in the high-end market. Lotus has had ambitious plans before and other investors as well and in never seems to end well.
     
  18. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 15, 2012
    5,405
    Exeter and Cirencester
    Full Name:
    John
    Interesting.
    1. Ferrari road cars have always been about making money - when Enzo owned the company, it was to finance racing. Now it's all about dividends for shareholders and racing is PR for road car sales. 1969 to 1988 was a sort of transitional period.
    2. Sadly true. Ferraris in the post-Pininfarina period have not been anywhere near as beautiful, but perhaps the Roma is a sign of good things to come?
    3. Again sadly true. Especially in the USA, where anything over 10K miles seems to be considered high mileage! Some of us, however, drive our Ferraris:
    1. Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. 4cammer

    4cammer Rookie

    Aug 9, 2009
    2
    Mendham, New Jersey
    My involvement with Ferrari goes back many decades and so my perspective is certainly different from most.

    I fell in love with Ferrari in the 60's when the 250 SWB Berlinetta was first announced. I was in college and immediately took down all of the Playboy centerfolds on my fraternity room wall and replaced them with photos of that gorgeous, sensuous work of art!

    In those days and for years afterwards, Ferrari was the holy grail - virtually never seen on the open road. On the very, very rare instances when I encountered one, it was always heard before it could be seen. That V12 sound!!!! Now various Ferrari's, if not all over the place, are relatively common.

    In those days, the factory typically hand fabricated three models, a GT, a Spyder and a Berlinetta. They were produced in the hundreds rather the in thousands as we see today.with new models announced on a regular basis By comparison, my 275GTB/4 was one of 260 +-.

    Now we have Ferrari retail stores, the Ferrari Personalization Program, even a theme park in Dubai?

    Yes, I would say Ferrari has simply become an expensive, profit-driven commodity and has completely lost its former status.
     
  20. F430 Driver

    F430 Driver Formula Junior

    Apr 23, 2008
    434
    Central New Jersey
    Driving my 458 Spider around North, Central or South New Jersey you would never know it lost any status. Attracts crowds, stares, cameras, smartphones taking videos, etc everywhere it goes. I guess I live in a bubble where Ferrari's are very special things here and rarely seen on public roads.

    Expensive? Yup. Profit driven? Sure. Commodity? Not from my experience. I guess it depends where you live. Newport Beach, Monaco, Dubai, LA maybe a non-event but outside of the wealthy cities less so. BTW if these are dime a dozen and so common in all these areas I guess people are buying them in droves still so Ferrari doing something right in each distinct market. Very smart.
     
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  21. 4cammer

    4cammer Rookie

    Aug 9, 2009
    2
    Mendham, New Jersey
    That's the word, "soul". The cars themselves have lost it also. The older, pre '70s and 80's cars could be frustrating, cantankerous and even unreliable. But they had personalities and even yes, souls! The sounds and smells and endless evidence of the loving care that went into creating them was all part of the experience.

    The newer cars are better automobiles that are faster, handle better, brake better, and are more reliable. However in my view, they have become a breed of cookie cutter, corporate mentality, less exciting automobiles that for the most part are overly refined, less unique, less beautiful and far less exciting.
     
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  22. PTG1

    PTG1 Formula Junior

    Oct 7, 2017
    429
    UK
    Full Name:
    Pete
    I took my 458 spider out the weekend before we had lock down in the UK to the suburbs of North London, when I pulled into the petrol station the car attracted a crowd and I spoke to a couple of enthusiasts, it seemed to really lift their spirits in a challenging time so I think your right in places outside of the most upmarket neighbourhoods people do still very much appreciate a ferrari

    Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
     
  23. Borrow’d Mine

    Borrow’d Mine Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 28, 2019
    236
    Florida
    Still making great cars too.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  24. randkin

    randkin Formula 3

    Aug 2, 2015
    1,196
    Somis, CA
    Full Name:
    Randy
    Well I guess that is true if you don’t count the Millions they spend on Formula One racing. Few other companies spend that amount on racing.
     
  25. Timpson

    Timpson Rookie

    Feb 18, 2020
    1
    Full Name:
    Nick Timpson
    Ferrari do indeed make money on new cars, but the level of demand for new cars is very closely linked to residuals on used cars. If I believe a new Pista will barely depreciate in the first year or two that's a very different proposition to one that loses 30% of its value, for example. Also don't underestimate the % of new cars which are financed. That financing is only available and attractive if depreciation is low. So, in fact, Ferrari's revenues are very much linked to the health of the used car market.
     
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