Ferrari running on LPG fuel

No but I've seen it done on 7 series BMW's with a similar fuel injection setup, there is apparently a small loss in power.

my only concern would be where do you put the tank?

 

Should be no problem as a 328 is built to run on unleaded which means that it will already have hardened valve seats (neccesary for running on the hotter burning LPG).

Carbs, mechanical FI or hi-tec FI are all no problem either as you can add the mixing plates to a carbed car or mechnical FI car and use the advanced LPI technology on "computer driven FI" engines.

Reprogramming the eprom for LPI can make sure that there is no or hardly any performance loss but the fuel consumption will be slightly higher which is offset in Europe by the lower fuel cost (where I live, LPG costs about a third of gasoline...).

I run 2 of my classics on LPG, the first being a 1964 Fiat 2300S Coupe, 6 cylinder, three double Weber carbs, the second being a 1968 Alfa Romeo 1750 Berlina with a 2.0L 4 cylinder with two double Weber carbs.

On such old engines LPG is always a bit tricky to get it running right as you have wear and tear in the engine and with LPG it's simply a bit more sensitive.

Added bonus over being allowed to drive where you want is that you virtually run a zero-emissions (not completely true but it comes close) vehicle that is 42 years old (in case of the Fiat)...

Both these cars have the tanks in the trunk and have kept their original fuel tanks as well giving the cars a formidable range as they are now "bi-fuel" and can switch from one fuel to the other in a matter of seconds. Since they are both carbed cars, you have to cut of the gasoline supply completely so that you consume the gasoline in the float chambers and once those run dry, you switch to LPG. That's all done through a simple switch on the dashboard.

Injected cars can switch from one to the other instantly as there are no float chambers involved.

If you are sure that you will never run out of LPG fuel, you could decide to remove the original gas tank and use that space for a LPG tank; they come in various shapes and sizes so you should be able find one that will fit.

There is a person here on this board who has a lot of LPG expertise, he will certainly pick up on this and who is a lot more knowledgeable than I am on the subject.

 

Wasn't LPG used as a means to federalize some Boxers in the early 80s?

 

By LPG I am sure you are refering to Propane, and not natural gas, correct? The letters get jumbled sometimes and on occasion LPG is equated to liquified petroleum gas, which gets refered to as natural gas. What about, if your going to attempt running a gaseous fuel such as propane, making the jump to hydrogen? I would imagine that high pressure fuel vessels could be parked in the loacations of the present fuel tanks. Or, could have gasoline on one side, with Hydrogen on the other for bifuel capability. Dont know what kind of range or fuel economy it would give though. Unbelievable what the world, and Italy, are coming to to actually make older cars illegal to operate. And a Ferrari of all things.

Okay, so on a carbed car, what about rejetting for running straight alcohol, or E85?

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but why not just put a catalytic converter on it?

 

The LPG as used in this context is indeed Liquified Pertroleum Gas.

The problem with the other solutions that uou bring up is availability.

Certain countries in Europe have a decent network of LPG filling stations (here in the Netherlands probably at around 60 - 70 % of all filling stations are ALSO supplying LPG).

Around 100% of the stations located in the highways have LPG.

Alcohol and hydrogen are simply not available at filling stations.

Yes, Europe IS concerned about the environment that is why most countries DID sign the Kyoto treaty... ;-)

 

Yeah that’s the route I would go, you may have a 10 HP or so loss, but it should be cheaper the converting the car over to LPG. Plus I think the HP loss by converting to LPG would be more…

 

For Italy having such lovely cars they sure hate them

 

As outlined in post # 3, LPG costs about a third of gasoline where I live, in other countries it gets as high as half, in some exceptional cases (Switzerland) it's just as expensive as gasoline.

Where I live, around 10.000 miles a year are enough to offset the cost of conversion, the higher consumtion in MPG and the higher roadtax (which is horribly expensive here, count on some US$ 100 per MONTH for a 2200 LBS car running on LPG!). That is just an example.

Adding catalysts is not exactly cheap either.

Also outlined was that with reprogramming the eprom of the injection system, you don't need to lose any HP on LPI over gasoline.

The free bonus is WAY lower emissions which originally caused this thread. No catalyst with gasoline can match that.

 

Following this tread with great interest, I must ask about a 550 Maranello -00.
Is it possible (at reasonable cost) to convert it to LPG or Alcohol (Etanol) ?
-Does anyone have any experience with that ?

 

Fascinating thread...I'll be lurking with interest! In the Czech Republic (where I lived for almost a decade) LPG was very popular. My regular taxi driver had a Lada, then a Citroen and then a Skoda Superb all modified to be "bi-fuel" and I couldn't tell the difference.

With the price of fuel in the UK (significantly higher than the mainland), this presents an interesting alternative.

Nice one Eugenio!

Cheers, MARK

 

here in Costa rica LPG bifuel cars are getting popular, installed kits go from $700 to $1500 for the fuel inyected cars and with the 90L lpg tank!
we are thinking on installing one on a DINO becuause it was recently registred here and due to date of registration being 2004, smog test should be lower than 0.5CO, thats imposile for a carbed dino! so we are thinking about it

 

I drove a few classic Alfa Romeo's (Berlina like Jack and Giulia's) on LPG.
No difference in driving. But be sure you have enough places to get LPG.
In the Netherlands we have a good network. I drove the Berlina in Italy and I don't remember having problems with finding to refill.
About the technical consequences on a Ferrari I can't help.

 

oh i forgot, overall cost is that runnig LPG is 40% cheaper than normal gas! the car consumes more liters of LPG than liters of gasoline, also you loose about 10% power but it runs smoother,cleaner and oil get LESS dirty!!!

 

Agreed. In Central Europe LPG was available at most filling stations. I can't say I've noticed the option here in the UK.

MARK

 

I used to have a Honda S2000 which I only ran on Shell Optimax, I emailed Shell public relations and they sent me a list of OS grid ref for all Shell stations that sell Optimax in the UK. I converted this list (using OS website tools) into a list of Long/Lat which I then imported into my mobile phone for Tom Tom Navigator 5 to use. I imagine they would do the same for LPG locations etc. There may even be a website dedicated to LPG availability in the UK. Its at a fair few petrol stations, you just dont notice it unless you look.

Front boot of a 355 would be just right for an LPG tank lol

 

Richard, that list of Optimax sites would be good to have too! I wonder when we're going to get 100 octane Optimax like in real Europe?

Hi Eugenio - I guess I just have not been looking for LPG. I'll keep my eyes open around Herfordshire and report back in due course!

Later, MARK

 

I am getting back up on my soap box, probably to yet again stick my foot in my mouth. First of all, the Kyoto accord was mentioned. I just dont buy into all the chicken little thinking in the world, running for cover everytime we wake up and its not the same as it was yesterday. Granted, there are a lot of us humans on the planet, and we are pretty filthy, but to go to all of the lengths some suggest, seems to me to border on being irrational.

Fisrt, there is the R-12/freon issue. I have been listening to all the scientific reasonings for the ozone hole since they found it. There was scientific evidence it was caused by high altitude aircraft. Then evidence was given that it was from R-12. Two things have come to light to make me question all of it. First is the issue that Dupont lost patent rights to R-12, and created R-134a, to which they now hold patent rights. This is the same company who lobbied for Hemp to be made illegal after they created nylon in around 1947. Coincidence? Two years ago it was brought to my attention that there were, at that time, 27 active volcanoes in Antartica. This blew me away as I was wholey unaware of this. I would have thought our great media giants of the world, the scientific community, and groups like GreenPeace would have mentioned this fact. I think anyone educated enough to read scientific data can make the connection between ozone holes and volcanoes. Plus the fact we have only known of the holes existence for barely more than two decades, and have no idea what its history is.

Global warming? Well, again, we have these supposedly well educated people trying to make conclusions without a good historical perspective. Or do we? 1400 years ago they were growing grapes and making wine in Scandinavia. They have not been able to since, as it has been to cold the last 1400 years. So if you were to ask an old Viking, he would say we are suffering from a global cooling crisis, and it has existed for over 1400 years. We have no knowledge of ice caps or glacial ice cap quantity from that time, yet these same self serving people want to conclude theories as fact, and attempt to hold the world hostage.

There are planets and moons in our solar system covered with vast oceans of liquid methane, somthing we deem to be an organic compound here on earth. By fairly simple means methane can be converted into more and more complex hydrocarbon compounds. Why is all the oil, which is lighter than water, between five, and twenty miles or more under the earth, while heavier water rests above it? Could our worlds oil supply simply be nothing more than converted methane, left here from when the earth was formed? Is there in fact, an almost virtual untapped supply of oil? It has been calculated that all the oil the world has used to date, since the late nineteenth century, would fill a fifty mile diameter pool only 12 feet deep. You could barely see something that small from the space station.

No my friends, I see all of these issues being presented as scare tactics by certain members of the world to effect control on the population at large. But I also become confused when I see someone who would want to own the poster child car of the world for gas guzzling and eviromental irresponsibility, waving there arms in unison with others that the sky is falling. I intend to wait and see.

 

Eugenio,

The conversion on paper is pretty straight forward.

The only "variants" in the whole conversion are the vaporizer (which has to match the fuel requirement of the engine) and the mixing plates which will have to physically fit the engine.

The rest of the equipment is "stock".

Since not many Ferraris have been converted (I think...) there is a good chance that the mixing plates are not readily available so they will have to be made.

The system basically consists of the following elements:

fuel tank
fuel tank frame
filler system
gasoline shut-off
lpg shut-off
vaporizer
mixing plates
dash switch
misc. fuel lines and electric wires

That is for a carbed / non-LPi engine.

In my country there are stringent rules as to how the equipment has to be installed (especially the tank which has to be installed in a "crash-proof frame"), the filling system (filler has to be located on the outside of the vehicle) and the system has to be leak-free of course.

There are also rules for which equipment to use; the tank has to be pressure tested less than 10 years ago when you install it, the lines have to comply with regulations and once it has been installed, the system has to be checked by a government testing station which, after approval, will notifiy the DVLA so that you registration is changed to LPG (which has implications for the road tax that you pay here).

If you have no experience whatsoever with LPG / LPG Conversions, I would strongly suggest to find a station that has expertise in this field and not mess with it yourself.

I don't know where you are located now as your profile shows Manilla but you are talking about the problems in Italy.

If you are in Italy with the car, it shouldn't be too difficult to find a station that will be able to do the conversion for you.

I don't know the prices in Italy but a complete conversion should cost under $ 4000 (that's high because you will need the "special" mixing plates).

The last car that I had converted was my Alfa Berlina with a 60 Liter tank, single mixing "plate" (it's not a plate on that one) and cost me around $ 1200 some 6 years ago.

 

Would it be possible to convert a 348 to use LPG?