Ferrari returns to Le Mans!

Andreas, that's something I reiterate in every thread which has the words "Le Mans" and "Ferrari" in its topic, and I think people here will never understand it

That being said, **if** there will be a breakaway series (which I doubt) consisting of the current FOTA teams, the ACO obviously seems eager to make their race part of the series, and they would surely change the rules or create a new class to fulfill the wishes of Ferrari & Co. If F1 stays as it is, we'll rather see a works GT2 team.

 

But it has to be changed in the first place, something which I only see if SEVERAL major players enter Le Mans... like the FOTA manufacturers. Audi and Peugeot would go crazy if ACO changed the rules to suit only Ferrari's wishes.

 

Of course they do, but especially Peugeot is focussing on Diesel engines, and both companies have been massively advertising their superior Diesel engineering skills with Le Mans for several years now. They just can't sell a 180 degree turn in terms of engines, neither to their bosses nor to the customers. "Hey, we told you for years that Diesel is the way to go and proved it with several Le Mans victories, but now Ferrari wants to join, so we're going back to petrol, OK?" -> won't work

If (big if, as always in this context) Ferrari and the others leave F1, I don't think they'll join LMS. There will be a new series organized by the FOTA members, part of which may be the Le Mans race.

 

Why does everyone claim it must be diesel to win?

The closet ACTUAL good comeption the Diesels have had are the LMP2 RS Spyders. Penske in the ALMS won more races than Audi did over all. (Or atleast should have given the few races with last minute cautions).

Now LMP2 has been crushed by regulations and can no longer beat an LMP1 car. This does not mean that a GOOD team cannot make a gasoline car to beat the audis. Acura is the only one that stands a chance, but their chassis is terrible. Ferrari if they did this would NOT win at first. You have Audi's and Puegots with YEARS of development on them vs. brand new cars. Ferrari has never made a prototype car so it would have NO data to lean back on. 2010 will be a bust for Ferrari (in big racing)if they do not do F1.

I do however think they could challange/beat the diesels if they went at it.

 

And the 333SP innthe 1990s

 

Acura's LMP1 makes up in mid corner speed for that which it loses on the straight to Audi and Peugeot.
It follows then that its quite a good chassis rather than a 'terrible' one.

 

follow this link:

http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sport%20Cars/Classiche/All_Models/Pages/GranTurismo.aspx

and you will find that Ferrari DID make many prototypes especially during the 1960 - 1969 time frame and they HAVE data to lean back on as well as they have the FXX program and they would WIN and have LOTS of fans in the stands if they were to come back. If this ever occurred, I would think that they would call it the P6 as Jim's car is P4/5.

Carol

 

Last WIN IIRC was back in 1965 with the 250LM/275 early mid engine car. Private entry Gregory/Rindt lucky #21.

After that it was pretty much a Ford GT/Porsche 917 show.

How much of that ancient engineering history (even FXX) would apply to a modern day diesel-fighter would be questionable indeed.

It sure WOULD be nice to see a pretty V-12 Ferrari in red (without advertising stickers) win it again against that pretty green treelined backdrop, though.

 

This is what I found on www.ferrari.com at the news page

Montezemolo at the track in Le Mans

Le Mans, 13th June 2009 - "It's great to see so many people here for a car race, it's a fantastic atmosphere." Meeting the press after a lap on the track in a Ferrari California with Jean Alesi behind the wheel, Luca di Montezemolo didn't hide his satisfaction about the packed grandstands at Le Mans:
"Thinking about all these enthusiastic people and about the empty grandstands at Istanbul last week I think that there's something wrong. But today I don't want to sadden myself by talking about Formula 1," the Ferrari Chairman said. "You all know our position, we've told you more than once: we want stability, certain rules, a clear and transparent governance system and the possibility to let the teams work the way they already showed they can work on a reduction of the costs. I really hope that we can find a solution: I'm convinced that there are responsible people at the FIA,who know about the situation."

Montezemolo as a flagman at the 24 Hours raised many questions as far as a probable return of the manufacturer from Maranello in the future to such a competition is concerned. "A Ferrari at Le Mans? Why not?," Montezemolo said. "If we should not race in Formula 1 anymore this would be an option: obviously not with a car with a Diesel engine, but maybe with a hybrid, who knows. In this race you can really see the values of competition in the areas of sports and technology, but I have to say again that the life, the heart and the soul of Ferrari are with Formula 1. This year, also because of the rules we can call "grey", it doesn't go too well, but we will never give up. Where we will be in 2011? For sure this situation will be resolved somehow: we will race in a Formula 1 with characteristics we want to keep or there will be some sort of alternative."

 

I love the "passion" for the idea.

Trouble is (IMHO), there is only one Le Mans every year. Every single F1 race, albeit possibly not very well attended in person, garners more TV eyeballs, 17 times a year, than Le Mans does but once..... I'll say again - "Who cares?".....

Sure, a Ferrari onslaught to win overall would lift the ratings, but again, so what?

F1 is where it's at if you want the best - Technology, drivers, engineers, et al.

Cheers.
Ian

 

Hmm, let me see: Ferrari and Schumacher dominated F1 until 2004. And ever since it has been declining according to you. Coincidence?

Nobody cares. 100k fans is what F1 has in one race. Plus millions of TV fans. Millions! One more time, since you don't seem to get it: F1 is the most watched sport on the planet!

I was at an ALMS race at Road America last year. We had the Le Mans winning Audis and the GT2 winning Ferraris and lots of other great cars, teams and drivers from Le Mans. And guess what: The stands were empty. Fact.

Maybe 10% more. At the most. Risi's team has won Le Mans last year and nobody (except Carol and her husband) gave a damn. Most "Ferrari fans" (whatever that means these days) don't even know Salo won it.

 

When I said never made a prototype I ment as in recently. The Fxx wouldnt even meet specs for the LMP1 class. They dont have anything current to go by. Porsche's RS spyder even had teething issues and took some time to get going even with factory support. They still won most of their class races at first though because they really did not have strong competition. Ferrari would have to jump into a Audi/Peugot battle royale. Atleast LMP2 would give them wins to gain confidence and momentum before challanging for the overall wins. This is what porsche did but they forced new rule changes to slow them down(again) and they bailed out of the series, again. Ferrari would have trouble getting going if they joined LMP1 right now. Eventually I think they would compete and take wins even without rule changes in their favor.

 

Le Mans and the ACO is a very fickle business. When they decide they had enough of you, they just change the rules. Ask Porsche, Jaguar and others.

They would probably welcome Ferrari and make any changes happen to have them and after a couple years of Ferrari wins, they just change the rules to the Scuderia's disadvantage.

The ACO makes the FIA look like a democracy.

 

The thing is Andreas, as you know a French car won the race this year. And I think the ACO wants to assure that they return as it is more of a sure thing than another manufacturer like, say Ferrari. Audi has already pledged they will return in 2010. The 2010 rules were handed out at the track just before the start of the 24 hours last Sunday. Again, diesels are the in thing. So I don't see any rules changes at LeMans until 2011 at the earliest.

That means Ferrari would have to wait until Sebring 2011 to introduce a car that would conform to any new LeMans rules in 2011, unless they build a diesel over this winter.

I doubt it that happens. If Ferrari does not stay in F1 for 2010, then they will either sit out 2010, try to supply IRL engines, or let one of the Chrysler factories in the USA build the 612 and go NASCAR. If any of those ideas sound ridiculous, so does the idea of Ferrari leaving F1, building a diesel, or for that matter, a breakaway series.

Oh, and what about the rules protest this year at LeMans that is now in the hands of the FIA? Those are ACO rules, not FIA rules. And didn't I hear that there have been rules issues with the WRC?? Damn rules. Give all the teams veto power so there are no rules. Run jet engines at Monaco.

Sadly, I think you are the only one that understands.

 

What we need is a proper unified World Sportscar Championship, just like the old days. I know the ACO behave as Gods unto themselves, but their regs don't seem so bad. Take the LM cars to Daytona 24hours, Sebring 12 hours, Silverstone 1,000kms, Le Mans 24 hours, Spa 1,000 kms, Monza 1,000kms. Suzuka 12 hours. Seven good races is enough.
I think the F1 calendar is too crowded. I used to be the most diehard F1 fan, but I'm drifting away now. A dozen F1 races is enough to make a worthy World Championship. And it will sure cut some of the budgets they are all moaning about.

 

Porsche didn't bail out of the series because of any rule changes. The Spyder project was over as it was only a couple year project as are many of the cars. A car's normal life span is about three years. Roger's cars went back to Porsche. The fact that two of them ran and took 1st and 2nd at Le Mans was that they were in the hands of privateers. Team Essex ran in LMS a couple years ago and just resurfaced; Team NAVI GOH acquired one of the other privateer cars. Horag had two of the Spyders, one that they raced and a complete car as a spare. If you followed ALMS during the time of the Spyders, Rob Dyson also had a pair they ran, they went back and now they are running Lola Mazda coupes.

There are some significant rules changes for 2011. Here's a synopsis of them:

2010
* Changes intended for 2010 include the complete redesign of the GT1 and GT2 rules which are intended to match the rules which will be introduced by the FIA.

* Hybrid-electric cars, still limited to the LMP1 class, will be allowed to contend for points and overall wins.

2011
* Complete re-write of the LMP rules.

* LMP1s will adopt the rules currently used in LMP2 (3.4L maximum naturally aspirated 6/8-cylinders or 2.0L maximum turbocharged 4-cylinders). Weights will remain about the same, which means manufacturers will be able to use hybrid electric systems and KERS to overcome the weight lost by the smaller engines.

* LMP2s will be limited to production-based GT2 engines only in an attempt to restrict the class solely for privateers.

* No major changes to the chassis construction. Open and closed cockpit cars will remain eligible. This means the proposed "LMP EVO" rules which were originally intended to introduce production car styling to closed-cockpit LMPs is dead.

So far this all means that the ACO will be attempting to slow the cars by as much as 15 seconds (at Le Mans) while putting in place restrictions to not drive out privateers. They've also cemented their drive to put manufacturers in LMP1 and privateers in LMP2.


Carol

 

I would prefer a 9 race series. 3 in north America, 3 in the middle east/orient, and 3 in Europe including Le Mans. That way transportation costs get spread out somewhat fairly.

IMO, if this does not happen, with 31 teams already entered in the Asian LeMans series, the north American series will be dead in a matter of another 2 years or less...

 

the teams in the Asian series got a financial incentive to attend

to me the Daytona 24 is a joke, forget that one - how boring, a roundy-round with a chicane to make it a "road course", a 24 hour night race under the lights? good place for Grand Am specs, not another series - the Spa 24 is far superior... Le Mans should be a separate entity not part of a series

Carol

 

Part of why Le Mans is currently not appealing are the nobodies who run and win it (sorry, but Wurz is a has-been in F1). Granted that would change if the top drivers from F1 would swap seats.

However a 24 hour race is still way too much for the modern audience who wants to see a race and celebrate the winner within 2 hours, the timeframe that also TV stations allot for eg. soccer matches etc. While die-hards love endurance racing, the mass audience wants fast food.

It will loose some of its glamour, no doubt. But as long as it is the fastest show on wheels, it will have its place. Some of the golden years of F1 were those that had barely any manufacturers and almost entirely a field of "garagistes" with a Cosworth.

I believe you that Spa was filled. But if the Le Mans series would be seriously considered as a replacement for F1 (for Ferrari's marketing plan that is), then it would have to be like that at every venue and I doubt that is the case.

Regarding the racing: Le Mans racing looks good because of the different classes, but we all know a LMP1 car passing a GT car is not really a pass. And as for the racing otherwise: I wouldn't call it great racing if the winning Corvettes (yawn) pull into the pits to clean the car so they look good while crossing the finish line. That's not racing, that's showboating. Compared to that I rather take a F1 finnish where the leader wins by a "mere" 30 seconds as opposed to several laps.

I am. I don't think there is that much of a difference in attraction. Yes LMP1 is better etc, but: Many people who want Ferrari to leave F1 and go Le Mans racing use the argument, that the F1 rockets have nothing in common with the street cars. They want souped up GT cars and thats GT1 and GT2. A 599FXX wouldn't fit into LMP1 (or get clobbered), but into GT1 (I presume).

Well, Ferrari is already winning in GT2, so why do people think it would be such a dramatic surge in interest if Ferrari would start in GT1?

Also (as mentioned many times before) Ferrari has no business in LMP1, because a Diesel engine doesn't fit into their road car program.