FERRARI ENZO | Page 113 | FerrariChat

FERRARI ENZO

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari/F80' started by joe sackey, Apr 18, 2012.

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  1. mechaniker

    mechaniker Formula Junior
    Owner

    May 30, 2004
    607
    Germany
    Joe, I have to correct you here!

    The lower trim is the same carbonfibre part as the body color painted sections. There is no rubber. Just expensive carbonfibre.
     
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  2. Schwafu

    Schwafu Karting

    Feb 12, 2023
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    Thanks for the info, much appreciated! Is there any accident history of #128781 known?
     
  3. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Carbon fiber, kevlar, composite material, plastic, rubber, whatever it's made of my sole point is it should be black the way the Ferrari factory made it for a reason.
     
  4. Prancing 12

    Prancing 12 F1 Rookie
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    The long way home
    Uncharacteristically imprecise.

    Accuracy for thee, but not for me :p
     
  5. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Let me try this more thoughtfully.

    Without conducting a study of the composition of the Enzo's body panels, which I have never had any reason to do so far despite all the Enzos we have sold, I was speaking with Marcel in reaction to his post of the Argento Enzo, and my observation in the form of a rhetorical question was "The plastic/rubber trim alongside the bottom of the car painted body color post production?" to which he simply replied "Most probably yes. Have to check with owner".

    He obviously gets it, and the point was made.

    I made my personal observations that Enzos look better in factory paint finish because it's both more purposeful and the car's profile looks sleeker - as Ferrari SpA intended, which is why I raised this topic in the first place.

    Below find a set of images which highlight the area I am speaking of, a discussion of the paint finish - satin black - and not a discussion of the area's material composition.

    Mechaniker may be quite right about the lower trim also being carbon fiber like the main body components, but perhaps I can be forgiven for concluding that the satin black lower trim parts sure look like plastic rash protection trim purposefully affixed to the lower part of body components to absorb scrapes & rash, as we see on millions of cars universally. For my part I'm positive I read somewhere that the Enzo's lower trim is CFRP (carbon fiber reinforced plastic) which might be where I got the crazy idea that plastic might be involved - and no I'm not speaking of the unpainted CF vertical aero fins in the rear valance and the unpainted CF horizontal one directly under the nose, just the satin black parts.

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  6. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
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    Surely it would just be simpler to say "Ok I was wrong"! it's fine to be fallible, most of us are.
     
  7. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    No Paul actually I was quite correct in my observation that the standard guise for Enzos from the factory was with the lower trim painted satin black.
     
  8. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
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    Surely given the number you love to tell us you have personally inspected on behalf of clients, you would have noticed when under the ramp looking for road rash that is was nothing at all like rubber or plastic!

    The only part you actually got right was it was black, which is observable some distance away even by the most inept of people.
     
  9. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Mechaniker, apparently there's plastic in the lower trim, also, the satin black lower trim parts I speak of are not the same composition as the body color painted sections as you said, and, the Enzo's body is not just Carbon Fiber.

    Today I had time to check in person with one of Ferrari North America's longtime specialist coach-builders, who happened to have 2 Enzos in the facility. Apparently the parts I am speaking of (the 2 satin-black pads either side of the underside the nose, both side sills, and the rear valance) are intentionally made in CFRP (Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic), which is fused to the bodywork which is of a different composite. He says the reason for Ferrari SpA using carbon fiber reinforced plastic for the lower trim is to provide an increase tensile strength for those areas which Ferrari expected to be subjected to road-wear & damage. The same concern that these areas would be subjected to wear & damage was why they painted them in satin black as this could more easily be periodically refinished. The CFRP areas I speak of are epoxy-bonded to the composite material front nose unit, the tub undersides, and the rear bumper component. He showed me where the components I speak of are fused to the overall bodywork on a bumper which was off the car. These areas are a different composition from the flat under-trays that run the central length of the car and which consist of a Carbon Fiber & Kevlar composite weave (as are the front and rear aero fins), to protect the car from underside road impacts from objects like rocks etc.

    The experienced Ferrari SpA coachbuilder said the Enzo's body panels are made with a composition of Carbon Fiber & Kevlar, and Carbon Fiber & Nomex, not just Carbon Fiber. The same thing is separately documented in a 2003 Car Body Design article where Ferrari SpA confirmed that the Enzo's bodywork as perfected in Pinfinarina’s wind tunnel is comprised panels with a composition combination of Carbon Fiber & Kevlar and Carbon Fiber & Nomex, not just Carbon Fiber. According to this piece, this composition of materials for different sections of the car allowed Pininfarina to structure a lightweight body-shell, still create the angular stylistic form that is the Enzo, and meet safety standards.

    Here's an image showing the different composition of the flat under-trays that run the central length of the car and which consists of a Carbon Fiber & Kevlar composite weave, contrast that with the satin black painted rear valance which is made of CFRP.

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  10. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    In the 2nd image of the underside of the bumper, you can see the line where the Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic areas I speak of are epoxy-bonded and fused to the overall Carbon Fiber & Kevlar bodywork, I learned that the fact that the bumper unit is all one piece does not mean its doesn't comprise multiple composite materials.

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  11. simpen

    simpen Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2016
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    If you want to be exact, you have to use carbon/kevlar fibre reinforced plastic, or composite throughout. Often shortened to just "carbon fibre", but every composite material is the combination of the fibre and matrix. The matrix (often epoxy resin) is less interesting though, that is why people talk about glass fibre, or kevlar when they speak about the composite material.
     
  12. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
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    The use of the word plastic in GRP and CRP is when the epoxy is in it uncured state, and no way related to plastics produced from oil derivatives.

    By continuing to claim the underside element of an Enzo is plastic is to also state that the tub of an F50 is plastic!
     
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  13. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Sure, the point is I learned that in fact the satin black lower trim parts I first speak of with Marcel are of a different composition to the body color painted sections, they are not the same as Mechaniker suggested above, this was something I had always suspected, and have now confirmed.
     
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  14. mechaniker

    mechaniker Formula Junior
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    May 30, 2004
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    Joe,

    my comment "just expensive carbonfibre" may have been as inaccurate, as your statement.

    I tried to say, that the black satin section is on the SAME composite material based part. It is produced as one part, even if it for SURE has different materials all included in it.


    At least for Germany, you need aramide fibres to get the certification for street use without big trouble (again, I try to get a feeling, not the most complex answer for this topic).


    BTW: Nomex and Kevlar is basicly same!!! Just a different company giving it a different name for obvious reasons and minor differences.

    And plastic is used EVERYWHERE on the Enzo. Basicly, it is a plastic car. As the F50, LaF and all the "Carbon Cars".



    The Fins are actually NOT Carbon/Aramide on the visible outside. And they are just screwed to the undertray and bumper, not glued, fused or epoxied.


    You may be one of the best selling these cars, I may be better repairing body panels of these cars (out of us two), as it is part of making a living for me.


    ( I have no fight here, just a good discussion about these great cars!):)
     
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  15. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm always happy to learn and I love the process of researching and verifying rather than taking the word of a keyboard specialist (of which there are many), I'm also happy to discuss with you Mechaniker, at least we both have actual hands-on experience with these cars in one specialty or another.
     
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  16. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
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    #2816 PAUL500, Aug 4, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2023
    Seeing as some members are enjoying being schooled in the art of composites I thought I would help that education by going into a bit more detail on the subject from my own first hand experience.

    Like many english words "Plastic" can have numerous, though unrelated meanings.

    Firstly there are the products made from the refining of crude oil and gas, generally called "plastics", they tend to be used for cheap and cheerful items such as the comedy dog poo flown out of Hong Kong!

    Then there is the reference to "plastic" in relation to the "plasticity" of a material, as in its ability to be moulded into shape. This is is only reason why the word is used in relation to composites. In their raw, uncured states, composites form very easily into moulds so are deemed as plastic in nature. However once fully cured this changes and the resulting rigidity is where they then really excel.

    Composites are initially formed from a flexible sheet material that is essentially a cloth made from the spinning of individual fibres, exactly the same as the material used in the clothes we wear. Clearly hardly a suitable thing for making car chassis and bodies from.

    A liquid is applied to the cloth, and this combination is then formed into a mould, the liquid then cures to form a strong matrix which gives the combined material great strength with low weight. The liquid used in the past used to be very rigid once cured and would crack fairly easily, however epoxy resins have now allowed a slight degree of flexibility without breaking up, making the combined product even more usable.

    Composite cloth is spun from many materials from flax to glass to carbon to aramids (often referred to as kevlar etc) and each provides a slightly different end product in a composite.

    Aramids are very very difficult to cut or tear (which is why they are used in bulletproof clothing). In car components they are typically used as an outer sacrificial layer in a composite lay up ( hence why you find them on underside components that may come into contact with the road), and also used to bind carbon fibre products so that in the event of impact where the item could shatter, the aramid layer keeps is all together, as the last thing you need is loads of shards of very sharp carbon body parts laying on a race track.

    This is the yellow and black inner layer you see on many F40 body panels, which was used by Ferrari for that very reason.

    A picture paints a thousand words, so I just popped into the material store of my own workshop and brought out a few of these clothes used in the construction of many Ferrari road and race cars of recent times, look closely and you can see the F40 body panel aramid/carbon mix.

    I also included a typical mould in the shot, recognise what part comes out of that one?

    The only things in that photo that are "plastic" are the clear sheet holding the carbon fibre roll together and the container for the epoxy resin.

    As I have suddenly stopped being quoted in this thread, then hopefully I am not one of those being regarded as a "keyboard specialist"......no chat gtp or wikipedia used to formulate any of the above.
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  17. Karimsaid

    Karimsaid Formula Junior

    Oct 2, 2014
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    Thanks PAUL500 for the above clear overview. Good to get information with depth and focused on what matters…
     
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  18. Karimsaid

    Karimsaid Formula Junior

    Oct 2, 2014
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  19. Karimsaid

    Karimsaid Formula Junior

    Oct 2, 2014
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    Sorry everybody, post above #2818 does not belong here. I will repost it under the F50 thread.
     
  20. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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  21. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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  22. Serobson

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    Awesome photography as always! Professional approach that no one else has! Just enviable!
     
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  23. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Serob if you guys are still looking for a non-red Enzo here's a Giallo Modena example with just over 1,000 miles which you can speak privately to me offline about, owned by our longtime client, it's been serviced by the local Ferrari dealer regularly and is Classiche Certified.

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  24. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Our personal favorite Enzo is 135872, new to Ferrari VIP client Chip Connor, we're privileged to have handled the sale of it twice, Grigio Titanio (3238 140) over Rosso (112806), engine number 80775, gearbox number 313, body number 116, assembly number 52895. The factory build commenced on 12th of December 2003, and concluded on 30th of April 2004.

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  25. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 World Champ
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