Ferrari A/C R12 Alternatives / R134?

Go to eBay and buy old stock and keep the R12

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I guess converting to r134 is your next choice

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On eBay you can also get a R12 substitute. This is a hydrocarbon gas that does not contain fluorine. It is compatible with older R12 systems.

 

Just convert it to r134 fittings..change whatever o-rings you can..swap out the dryer..and enjoy. If ya gotta recharge once a year or less..no big deal.

Contact Polar Bear in Florida they will have what you need. Don't over think it. It's a cheap and easy thing to do.

 

Your AC is quite sophisticated and its dual AC relies on hard to source electro-valve. Do not take a chance on badly implemented r134. Hydrocarbon or R416 are the proper alternatives.

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ac-repair-checklist.627265/#post-147394879

And

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/400i-a-c-evaporator.644561/#post-147985831

 

Yes, these kits are propane based. It turns out that propane has similar thermodymanic properties to R12.

 

Propane has a better cooling capability than r12, and given that it is a petroleum based product it can dilute the type of lubricant that was used in these old ac system. There are however quite a few issues:
1) in a 412, we are talking about approx 3kg of propane that is routed way to close to the exhaust
2) many AC shop will refuse to touch a car that was filled with such a gas.


Let's bear in mind that the 412 AC does work very well: bigger compressor, three cooling fans next to the condenser, dual evaporators, etc... The loss of cooling power due to a newer gas is not going to be as dramatic as in a 328 or a Boxer. If need be, fitting a bigger condenser is also quite easy (and cheap).

On this car I can see no reason why one would want to use a gas that is either bad for the environment or bad for the AC shop recycling machines.

 

If you just drop in R143a you will not be happy with the results. Cooling performance will be very poor. It will get even worse as the ambient temperature get warmer. Propane as an alternative is not such a great idea. Yes it works. A lot of new Refrigerant blends have it. However in a car I have concerns about leakage. I saw a training seminar on such an issue. The example used was a leak inside the car. The resulting explosion bent the roof and blew out the side glass. Get a professional AC guy to help you.

 

We retrofit R12 to R134 in dozens of Ferrari vehicles every year. Properly done there is no loss of performance. You should replace any non barrier hoses, flush all the old oil from system and install a new receiver drier. On cycling systems you will need to change out the low pressure switch from one that cycles off at around 32 psi to one that cycles closer to 20 psi. Charge volume will be roughly 70% of an R12 system but will be dependent on the efficiency of the cooling on the high side. The 412 has a very good cooling system for the condenser. On systems with expansion valves their flow rate is dictated by the evaporator temperature and they do a good job of correcting the flow rates without any modifications. Electronically controlled valves such as the 412 also do a great job of controlling the pressures and temperatures with R134 and if they need rebuilding there are several good companies to do that. Convert to R134 with some hoses and the system will be bulletproof for a along time to come.

 

One final comment, propane is only flammable in the presence of oxygen. Assuming the A/C system is leak free, there would be no risk of any fire as long as it remains leak free. The propane recharge kits do contain additional oil. That being said, a fluorocarbon is completely non-flammable. It would be the better option if you are willing to pay a shop for a complete system overall to R-134. It's not as simple as evacutating the system and adding the new gas. Be sure to find someone who knows what they are doing.

 

All the hoses. OE Ferrari hoses of the period don't have a chance to contain R134. And very likely the compressor. Leaking was an issue with them even on R12.

 

Who said R134 isn't bad? No one. It is just a little less bad than R12 with a great big dose of hype. Its why we have yet another new gas in current systems. And as far as recycling machines every properly equipped shop has a gas tester. If propane gets in their equipment its their own fault.

 

Sorry Tom. Its a great deal more involved than that unless you are just looking to put a few fast bucks in your pocket. Probably still has mineral oil which is incompatible with R134a but the car is long out the door before problems start and then you can just charge again for the repairs huh?

 

I agree. Its why I still use R12 in R12 cars.

 

I don't see the point in this R12 debate. If you live in a country were it is illegal, you've got to use something else. Period.

A 412 AC works VERY well even with modern gas. So r416 if this is locally available. For the lack of it: r134 with complete flush of the system, remove the oil from the compressor, refill with poe, replace expansion valves, replace dryer.

 

Have no idea what you are talking about. There is no debate. Besides your country isn't very hot.
The A/C system has a lot of oil in it besides the compressor. It needs to be flushed in its entirety. And the hoses require replacement. Ferrari hoses have no chance of containing R134 for any acceptable period. They were poor even by the standards of the 80's.

We obviously have a very different understanding of "Very well". By my yardstick it was just OK even with the correct gas.

 

I had converted my Mondial 3.2 years ago to r134. But I did not do the hoses, they are especially long and difficult to replace.

The cooling power is fine, I noticed little if any change from the r12 (my compressor failed, and I needed to recharge, and r12 was not legal nor available at all in Canada). Temperature IR measured coming out of the vents was the same.

But regarding the hoses, I did lose about 1/2 can of r134 each year, so the system does need top ups. Barrier hoses would make a conversion as good as a new car. But a top off each year is not a that big deal a either. Two years ago I did put in a special modern ac sealer, which seems to have coated the hoses and reduced the leakage, no top up required last season. We will how it goes shortly as driving season starts in a month or two.

I think an r134 conversion is quite simple, the flush, new oil, green o rings, dryer, can be done by capable shops, just need one who does not rush and flushes things really well. The hose replacement decision is the big one, the cost of new or custom made barrier hose and labour to install will be dear. Worth doing if you are in a hot climate, and use the ac much of the time. If not, and you don't mind the top ups, you could see how it goes, perhaps try a sealer, and eventually do the hoses if that becomes more compelling.

 

The OP leaves in the UAE, he's got to make it do with what he has. I hardly see how he can get Duracool shipped overthere by regular post.

My personnal case is different: my hoses were replaced (damaged the fender in the process), my only stock part is the evaporator... So I am now runing on straight r134 (not even 416), because any AC shop can service it now.

My cousin (who has a 412 that works better than a Cadillac fleetwood), used to be an AC certified tech: he has probably 20kg left of r12, but even transporting a barrel is now illegal here. If you cross the border (15 miles away), you can have a legal refill, but the Swiss are probably going to ban it also, and the gas is so expensive that you'd better replace all the ac system rather than paying for three refils.

€450 for the hoses, €60 for the aspera specific seals, €60 for a 50% bigger condenser, €50 for expansion valve and dryer. €40 for the POE oil. And not so much labor if you do not fully remove the dashboard (only the leather trim of the right side of the transmission tunnel). This should not scare the OP given what he is currently doing with his k-jet...

 

Not exactly. I suppose I should itemize everything here that should be changed to prevent confusion. But people in general over think these systems.

There are plenty of shops out there that like to over complicate things and then over charge for things that simply are not necessary. I also have to work with the customers budget..and every conversion comes with warnings.

Technically the entire a/c system should be replaced because you will never be able to get all the old mineral oil out of the system. All the old lines and hoses should also be replaced..evaporator, compressor, condenser, expansion valve, dryer, every o-ring..all of it.

We also do not know what as gone through the system before hand. Who has installed what refrigerant. I have done the basics many times. Dryer, oil, accessible o-rings..the car cars are still blowing cold air 10 years on. Some require top-ups some don't.

So to assume I'm just ripping people off..that is wrong. Most do not want ro spend 20k to rebuild thier a/c system in a country where it is only hot for 3 months of the year.

 

I had made a cross reference list for the single AC system here : https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/r12-to-r134-for-365gt4-2-2.613469/#post-146935715 . These are pretty common parts that can be sourced in the U. S (summit racing and rockauto do ship overseas). Not sure about the compatibility with dual ac systems. Not even sure about the full compatibility with every variant of the single AC system... (the dryer male/female connectors do not always match, also do not buy FSS-24019 & FSS-24027 as these do not work with our compressors ).

If you replace the condenser, you must also replace the hoses, as new condensers are not provided with the old-school flare connectors.

Prior to the upgrade, my car has held r416 for three years, it had been fully flushed (twice) and refilled with POE oil plus fluorescent leak detector. Most of the oil is located on the compressor crank case (unlike a sanden like-compressor), so one can renew a lot of oil on each flush without disassembling the system. The butane in r416 "carries" whatever is left of the old oil; so these left-overs are gradually removed after each subsequent flush/refill.

Solidified oil is not as a big issue as in other cars: on the 400, the dryer is located before the compressor, which is consequently well protected against debris. Also the condenser is not as delicate as modern ones: it is not a bulletproof serpentine, but the inner tubes are still reasonably big (i.e hard to clog). That's probably why some do refill the system with R134 and get away with it.

Here again I am not saying newer gases do cool better (they do not), but it is possible to make a proper conversion to a legal system without loosing too much.