Ferrari 412 - Failed Inspection. High HC and CO Values

Ughh, reading all of the back and forth from the techs that know what they are doing (Rifledriver, tbakowsky, etc) and what the OP is doing with the car actually makes me feel physically ill.

 

Just have a read at this thread https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrari-360-major-service-camshaft-question.673471/#post-149009631. We (me included) were just telling the OP he would damage the engine, @mferrari43 just made the point that with lots of trial and error an amateur can go through this.

The major differences between a professional and amateur job is not the end result, it's the delay and consumption of unneeded accessories and tools. I can myseld perform quite a few tasks in my car, my mechanic does the same disasembling just what's needed (I always remove too much stuff) and replacing far less parts. That's the reason why he can make a living out of it...

The OP does have access to serious machinists, so he is not alone fixing the car in his backyard.

 

Many of the members here did not follow your adventures in the 365/400/412 subforum, but for sure you managed to tear everything apart (engine & k-jets), put it back together and so far the engine works (albeit polluting a lot ). If we just make an account of your "failures" up to now, you only experienced a faulty k-jet rebuild (probably a leaky "new" gasket) and so-so timing: not bad considering what's involved in fixing these engines and how things can go terribly wrong.

I've personally learned a lot from this thread:

1. Tons of advices from "techs that know what they are doing" (as @Motob says)
   
2. Your adventure definitively convinced me to change the flywheel on my car: mine does not have proper timing marks any-more, and having a permanent sturdy degree wheel on the car is a definitive plus!
3. We know for sure that one could offset a 400i inlet camshaft by 8° without drama. This leaves quite some margin for tinkering on my own car...

So that's a thread I will bookmark for sure: my mechanic won't last forever and I'd better educate myself before his retirement...

 

Really.... Physicaly ill? Drama much?

 

So apparently a smart person can figure out how to do these things, its an engine its not a nuclear reactor, it just takes brains and patience, I believe the technical term is called learning. If you make a mistake and bend valves or what not, guess what... just replace those, lesson learned, move on, nothing can't be fixed when doing this, including mistakes which as stated, is called learning. Your not on the clock like a professional, who cares if you take wrong turn here or there when learning, that's actually part of the experience, if takes you 3 months to do what a pro can do in 3 days, so what? It your car, your learning that takes time. Pros chipping in advice or tips is always appreciated of course, sometimes the realization that you have to go through a process to "get there" is lost on them though.

The difference is just time. So what you not on the clock paying your self to do it. In fact I'd argue that your paying your self to learn so the longer it takes and the more you learn, the more mistakes you make that you learn from, the more your worth to yourself.

The benefit if of doing it your self is all the other shoddy crap that people do you can fix, like studs with damaged threads, lock washers that no longer lock, wave washers that no longer wave, lock nuts that no longer lock, replace this or that that is not part of a service so they won't do that will eventually need to be done or should be done etc. Actually hand a customer a bill for additional $350 in hardware above expected cost most customers would blow a gasket so even great techs wont replace hardware that "probably should be replaced".

There are REALLY good techs and there and there are shoddy ones. There are REALLY good amatures and there and there are shoddy ones. So pro does not equal a good result mind you. Different between the good ones of each type is just time to do the job. Customers don't want to pay for someone to learn, I get it. Your your own customer when you DIY.

So time is not really an issue, mistakes are not an issue, except for pros looking in apparently, man they get worked up. We all thank you for all the help, advice and tips its invaluable, but... chill out ,don't others journeys so personally.

Physically ill, how absurd....

Enjoy the car!

 

You post a video on Youtube and use the "Media" button on the toolbar, then on the dialog-box, you post a link to the YouTube page that displays the video. The forum will automatically embed the video that's in the YouTube page in your post. Works really well and super easy once you get used to it.

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(Took me 9 years to fix my engine )

 

These plenum are indeed really nice: the F101CL engine was treated with a very clean (side-draft) k-jet setup. Unlike the V8 or even the flat 12, the air intakes are much more straightforward. Also, having two distributor makes the system far less restrictive than on the V8.

All in all the 400i is only 5hp less than the 365, whereas a 412 has a bit more of everything (more HP, more bottom end, more user-friendly, less pollution). I am not discussing on the market value of the carbed cars versus k-jet cars (carbs car are a better financial investment), but performance wise this particular implementation of the k-jet was really well thought out.

 

The 412 and 400carb do have 340HP, I would not call it considerably less power, compared to the 352HP of the Daytona.

The 365 definitively has less power, but the compression ratio is much lower (the parasitic drag of the sump and the exhaust port do also grab a few HP, but not as much as the compression ratio). This being said, Daytona high compression pistons are a direct fit in the 365

 

The cam profiles are very mild in all CIS engines. Lumpy cams would upset the airflow sensor plates to the point of being useless. Smooth and high vacuum are key parts of an efficient CIS system. All that directly related to camshafts and yes cam timing. Lots to consider with these cars..

 

No way you could reclaim 450~500hp out of this engine. (even the Bob Norwood twin turbo 400i misses the 450hp mark).

They are some limits to the number of HP you can safely reclaim out of that block. My brother's 365 was (allegedly) close to 390hp in the late eighties, but the engine had to be rebuilt quite a few times. He bought the car in 2010, shortly after the purchase I had to opportunity to drop the cylinder head with our mechanic: upon inspection, quite a few exhaust valves guides were shot. One valve was even "Z-bent" (thank god theses were not the "stock" sodium valves). As a rough guess I would presume the side-draft design makes the exhaust port less tolerant to the sort of insane upgrades that were made on the 450hp Daytona. The 365 engine breathes very well, but does not evacuate heat as efficiently.

The car was mostly rebuilt with stock parts (i.e "de-tuned"), but still has the high compression pistons from the Daytona... My 400i does have "mild" compression pistons, these are also meant for the Daytona, but it's not a direct fit: the skirts had to be trimmed to accommodate the crankshaft. They are a compromise between the sedate stock pistons and what I saw in the 365.

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These do make the 400i engine much more lively, but such a piston upgrade would not be as dramatic on the 412. On this latest iteration of the F101 engine, Ferrari did their homework: the compression ratio has already been bumped to ~9.5 thanks to the shape of the cylinder head. The 412 is also closing the intake very early which contribute to the dynamic compression. This dynamic compression somehow sets some limits: you cannot have it both ways and aggressively increase both the static and dynamic compression.

All in all, it's easy to bump the power up to ~350hp. Any further upgrade requires serious engineering: Carobu delivered 410 hp out of a 365 fitted with a 412 lower block and crankshaft, high compression pistons (10:1), and aggressive camshafts. That's probably where the limit is for a "stock looking" engine.

The Daytona has its reputation for good reason: its potential was not on the same league...

 

Do you confirm that the final setting has reduced the overlap? If so the adjustments are not likely to have made the situation worse.

Maybe you should have a look at the ignition: it's more easy to ignite the mixture when gazoline molecules are ckose to each others, so whenever ignition is poor we tend to enrich the mixture in order to achieve a proper idle.

It could well be that your coils are shot or the spark plugs are too cold?

 

I don't have the 412 WSM that might state this directly, but the ignition advance curves in the 412 OM imply that the throttle idle microswitch should be retarding the idle ignition 4~5 deg at warm idle (if it's working correctly). Not sure it would cause your exact symptom (if you are tweaking up the idle settings with the idle ignition more advanced than it should be), but it's easy to check -- just unplug the throttle microswitch at warm idle = (I believe) the warm idle RPM should increase and then decrease back to where it was when you plug it back in. (If someone has a 412 WSM please comment if this item is mentioned or not.)

Otherwise, IMO you're getting to the point where you need to confirm/deny if the fuel delivery from each injector in each bank is equal (or very near equal) -- i.e., the "Dixie Cup Test" (best to use graduated cylinders) or using rotameter(s) (but that's not easy without the F tool). What can cause you symptom is that you need enough fuel coming out of the least-flowing injector to run well without the most-flowing injector(s) not over-delivering fuel (and a cylinder will still run very well when very rich).

 

Brian, (Rifledriver)
can you text me 770-845-8335 ?