Ferrari 412 - Failed Inspection. High HC and CO Values | FerrariChat

Ferrari 412 - Failed Inspection. High HC and CO Values

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by 360modena2003, Jun 6, 2023.

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  1. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    Hello,

    my Ferrari 412 just failed the inspection, measured 1198 ppm and 7.5% CO - which is way above the values indicted on the manual and permitted by local laws as well.

    I have rebuilt both metering heads, new timing chain, new intake and exhaust valves.

    WUR, Injectors, pressure all are up to spec.

    My only doubt is valve timing - the 4 marks on each camshaft are nearly spot on - but the marking on the flywheel is my doubt now.

    It starts and runs really strong (the rear tires break out), but the odor of the exhaust is terrible.

    Would incorrect valve timing cause this?


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  2. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,670
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Actually testing your exhaust is one of the ways you know your timings are off ..all things working of course

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
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  3. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    Interesting - do you mean valve timing or ignition timing?
     
  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    #4 Rifledriver, Jun 6, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2023
    Well both actually.

    FYI I have a lot of experience with 400/412 and also California emissions.
    That is real high. Do you by any chance also have O2 and CO2 numbers? Be a big help. Cam timing marks mean little on those. Flywheel marks on the other hand are usually pretty accurate.

    Did the cams get degreed when put together and do you have an exhaust gas analyzer?

    412 has electronic advance, it is adjustable but leave that for later. It is so rich, just adjusting fuel mixture might fix it. You had both fuel distributors rebuilt. How did you set mixture afterward? Simply cannot be done by ear. How did balance, idle etc get set?
     
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  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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  6. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    The cam
    Upon reassembly only the marks on the cams were used - not degreed.

    No O2 or CO2 values are available, only CO and HC.

    The mixture was set from rich to very lean, but no amount of tuning with the CO screw would make it run right. The odor is also very strong, not normal.

    The balance was done by your recommended method of pinching the left and right bank air hose until both are even.
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    #7 Rifledriver, Jun 6, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2023
    Have someone who is very experienced in the process degree the cams. Until that is done all else is just a waste of time. The factory went to the time and expense to do it that way on each and every car because it is vital.

    Also, diagnosis with only 2 gases is pretty much a waste of time. In this case for example I know the CO2 will be down around 4 or 5 % but if all 12 cylinders are firing and O2 is at 1 % it is too rich and might be cured by adjustment. If on the other hand O2 is at 4,5,6 % The cam timing is off and we don't need to waste our time. 2 gas readings are good for crude adjustment on a motor you know is perfect. 4 gas is for fine adjustment or any diagnostics.

    When cam timing is off they never will run well at any mixture near correct. Richer will always run better. The smell is HC. HC goes to the moon with a cam timing issue.
     
  8. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    Thank you - seems I have a cam timing issue then.
     
  9. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    Can this be done with the engine in the car?
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Yes, we do it all the time.

    You need to start with the cam timing. I am confident there will be other tuning issues once that is known to be right.
     
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  11. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    Any indication on how the cams should be timed?

    You are saying that even if they are right on the marks, it would cause it run so rich?

    On the flywheel, is the 1/6 mark the one that should be used?


     
  12. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    From a combustion cycle perspective, what would make it run so rich - being too advanced or retarded?

    I will verify #1 TDC by removing a spark plug and checking the position of the piston.

    I also checked compression on all cylinders, and they are all within 5% - around 155-160 PSI.
     
  13. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
  14. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
  15. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    I only have the Ferrari 400i workshop manual, is there anything particular about the 412 that would be different with regards to cam timing?
     
  16. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    2,266
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    The car seems so toxic that I would try adjusting it by "ear" and identify the source of the issue.

    First check with a timing light that both banks are correct (you will need a light with a long cable), then just go for the leanest setting. The idea is to make it slightly rough which will help for the diagnostic.

    On my car, the setscrew is very sensitive (even by ear): 1/8turn richer and rpm gets rough, 1/8 leaner: equally rough. So there is basically a 1/4 turn margin. If the adjustment range is larger, something is wrong with your setup.

    Once the engine has a lean rough idle, check the temperature of the individual cylinders (spark plug and exhaust ports). If there is a significant difference across cylinders of the same bank, you have a problem with your k-jet (or a leaky valve). If the temperature is homogeneous, lean the mixture more and check temperature again, if the temps are still homogeneous chances are camshafts are not properly timed.

    In order to make it easier, you could lean the banks individually, so as to let one bank of cylinder keep the engine running while you "starve" the other bank for testing.
     
  17. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    Hello, yes - I did lean out until it runs rough, but still the odor is not normal.

    All 12 cylinders are running equally rich and bad, and all 12 are the same temperature - (new) all 12 spark plugs are black with soot.
     
  18. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    2,266
    Lyon (FR)
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    R. Emin
    Bad timing has a huge impact on exhaust temp (retarded = more heat = less HC), but should not foul the plugs, at least not with camshafts aligned on the factory marks.

    I would further investigate ignition and mixture. Maybe your cold start enrichment is way too rich, which could kill the spark plugs before reaching operating temperature.

    When messing with a poluting car I just use regular copper plugs, ideally on the hot side and with multiple ground straps (ex: Bosch F5DTC). At least these do not get fouled easily and are less fragile than thin tip plugs. They can sustain an overly rich tuning while I adjust the mixture.

    The expensive plugs are installed once the engine runs properly.

    Also don't forget that clockwise is rich, anti-clockwise is lean. I know you know it :)
     
  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    The cam timing is different. Everything an experienced Ferrari mechanic needs to know is stamped on the flywheel and printed in the owners manual.

    I am not going to teach advanced auto repair on the internet nor am I going to argue with those who do not know how to perform diagnostics.
    Once the cam timing has been set properly by someone with the proper experience I can help.
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    The cam timing is not making it rich. It has been adjusted rich because its required to make it run when cam timing is incorrect.
    I already explained that.
    All the flywheel marks will be used.
     
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  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    This is very nearly 100% wrong.
     
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  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    PM me if you want advice. I will not get involved with this conversation any longer.

    The advice is very poor and I am not into arguing.
     
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  23. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    #23 360modena2003, Jun 7, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2023
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  24. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
    2,435
    This is where the timing marker sits on the flywheel. Image Unavailable, Please Login

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