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Ferrari 166MM-53 Abarth for sale

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Boudewijn, Jun 14, 2004.

  1. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Original design for the Alfa giulietta sprint was done by Scaglione for Bertone in 1954. Only 2 cars were built with the hatchback feature. By the time the car became a production item, Alfa decided not to do the car as a hatchback. The original grilles were eyebrows. The change to eggcrate grilles (as in the giulietta photo in an earlier post) came in 1958.

    Link to Scaglione prototype photos:

    http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/alfaromeo750and101/photos/browse/e763
     
  2. mx906

    mx906 Rookie

    Jan 11, 2007
    23
    Motorace,

    Thx for the Scaglione posts. I share your passion for this remarkable designer. Would you have any interest in being involved in a book project on the subject? Please email me if you would.
     
  3. Motorace

    Motorace Rookie

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    Dan Eastwood
    You have specified that you do not want to accept emails or private mails through Ferrari Chat, so you will have to send me a Private Mail by clicking on 'Motorace', etc.
     
  4. Motorace

    Motorace Rookie

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    Sorry, I do not know if it is a Rens Biesma drawing, but I agree with you that it looks like some of his other work. He has an agent who previously attempted to sell some prints on eBay, and you can do an eBay search on Rens Biesma "completed" items to contact him.

    All I can tell you about this particular drawing is that I found it here:

    http://turbo124.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2529&highlight=abarth+biposto

    - Motorace
     
  5. Motorace

    Motorace Rookie

    Jul 10, 2006
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    I emailed Rens' agent and asked if he'd done the Fiat Abarth Biposto artwork.
    The agent's name is Miguel munoz.
    His email address is miguel.munoz@tiscali.nl
    Here is his response:

    Howdy!!!!
    You can get Rens at biesmarens@hotmail.com
    Be patient if he does not reply immediately...he is an artist!!!!! and moody quite often......
    But if you tell me what you need I can help ...

    I cannot recall the Fiat you mention but one can not be sure.....
    CHEERS
    Mig
     
  6. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    Thanks! I will contact the agent, as I haven't gotten response to e-mails ent to Ren's own address....
     
  7. mroz

    mroz Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    286
    California
    Motorace,
    Excellent discussion about Franco Scaglione and his designs!!!

    Scaglione cars of the mid fifties are radical. Hard to image seeing them for the first time at the Turin show. He explored the limits of automotive art.

    I think Scaglione's Turin Show cars greatly influenced Pinin Farina.
     
  8. Motorace

    Motorace Rookie

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    Thank you for your kind words!

    Would you care to comment more specifically on any particular cars from Scaglione and Pininfarina whose designs you see as related? - (Perhaps the Alfa Romeo Coupes and Spiders?)

    For many years I have been seeking clues as to which designs influenced other designs, and I have pretty much concluded that most designs owe something to someone. Rarely is there a truly original never-been-thought-of-before design idea...

    In fact, one of the hallmarks of a good designer is the ability to maintain a family resemblance to previous products through key design elements such as a particular grille shape or fender line. This continuity of resemblance connects a company's product lines over it's history... but it also means that different designers are required to copy certain design elements to maintain that familiarity. Hence, Pininfarina's Alfa Giulietta Spider would have be expected to copy some design elements of Scaglione's Alfa Giulietta Sprint Coupe (which in turn borrowed some design elements from earlier Alfas).

    So, to me, (IMHO), the laurels should go - not so much to "originality" - as to the "refinement" of a design idea into it's most pleasing proportions. If you saw the Alfa Giulietta Coupes that Alfa Romeo's in-house styling department had been planning to build before Bertone got the contract and gave Scaglione the assignment - you'd laugh. There's an old saw about camels looking like committees designed them. They were 'original', but not refined. The proportions were all wrong. That's how I'd best describe these in-house Alfas before Scaglione created his cute, yet very refined design for the Giulietta Sprint Coupes.

    Good design is almost completely 'subjective' - subject to the human eye – (connected to the human brain), being pleased with a shape. The human brain evolved over eons to find certain shapes more attractive than others - especially when it came to picking healthy partners among other humans. Good designers need an intuitive grasp of healthy human proportions to be able to design automobiles (or anything else) with eye-pleasing proportions.

    While it is difficult to determine who came up with a particular design concept or element first, it is not as difficult to select whose refinement of an idea we like the best - i.e. who refined it into the most pleasing version. Time and general agreement have shown that Scaglione and Pininfarina have both been masters at refining designs into extremely eye-pleasing proportions. Pininfarina and Bertone have both had the benefit of being more widely known than Franco Scaglione because their Carrozzeria have been the name on the products designed by many different designers under their employ, while Franco Scaglione (being employed by them, had to watch most of the design credit go to them).

    I have no doubt that Battista "Pinin" Farina (later Pininfarina) was able to design with the best of them, I have often wondered if his son, Sergio or his grandson, Andrea (the current president) have the same talent for actual design, or has their best talent been in managing the designers they employed. There is a great story about Battista where he was studying a body-in-clay mock-up of a particular car. He told the two clay modelers that a particular body sculpting line needed to be moved down 2 millimeters (less than a tenth of an inch). When he left, the two clay modelers thought, "Easier said than done". Battista's request meant having to re-do the entire side of the clay car, just to move this crease line down a tenth of an inch.

    They conspired to not move it at all, but to tell him that they did - figuring no one's eye could be so accurate as to tell the difference, and with that, they broke for lunch. When Battista returned the next day to check on the new look, they proudly told him that they had indeed moved it. He responded, "I must have been mistaken then, it must have needed four millimeters. Please move it another two millimeters". This time, they moved it and never questioned his judgment again.

    Most of us can tell what we like & what we do not like, but few of us have the distinctions or the sense of proportions to know how to improve a design that isn't working as well as it could. For that, we rely on the master designers like Franco Scaglione, Battista Pininfarina, Giugiaro, Leonardo Fioravanti (Ferrari Daytona, Dino, 512 BB, 308 GTB, etc.), Marcello Gandini (Lamborghini Miura, Countach, Diablo, etc), Tom Tjaarda (Ferrari California Spyder, Fiat 124 Spyder, DeTomaso Pantera, etc), Paolo Martin (Ferrari 512 Modulo), Sir William Lyons (Jaguar SS100, XK120, and XJ series, etc.) and Malcolm Sayer (Jaguar C, D, and E-types, etc), Pete Brock (Original Corvette Stingray, Cobra Daytona Coupe, etc), Larry Shinoda (Mid 60's Corvettes, Boss Mustangs, etc)... to name but a few of those who have given us great pleasure with their designs.

    For those of you wondering why I've left Nuccio Bertone (may he R.I.P.) off this short list, I am of the impression that he was a great manager of designers and certainly knew great talent when he saw it - hiring Michelotti, Scaglione, Giugiaro, and Gandini, among others, but I am not yet aware that he took personal credit for any of the great designs that came from Carrozzeria Bertone. To his everlasting credit, he not only knew when to hire great talent, he also knew how to give them the freedom to be creative, such that much of their best work was done under his banner.
     
  9. mroz

    mroz Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    286
    California
    The B.A.T.'s are 10 Minutes from my home. So. I have had the pleasure of looking at them recently.

    Scagliones 1953 &1954 B.A.T. appear to be a combination of organic forms ( looks like flapping wings- maybe a stingray- opposed to airplane wings and rocket fins) / flight themes. The result seem to be more like sculpture than a car. Still very nice.

    A couple years later, Pinin Farina tried a similar approach at the same Turin 1955 show.

    Pinin Farina displayed a 375MM that had similar, but reserved, organic forms / flight themes. The 1955 375MM 0490AM combined organic forms (radius bird like upswept wings, bird like wing bumper and tail, rear musculature) and dynamism elements ( descending rear vents and side motor vents). Also, jet themes like a rear 180 Degree wrap around Plexiglas window and jet like front fender lines.
    Some of the elements became the Ferrari Family theme seen later on the TDF etc. (I must disclose that I see this 375MM daily)

    It appears the Turin cars had related design approachs of subtle organic forms of flight.
     
  10. Ed_Long

    Ed_Long Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
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  11. mroz

    mroz Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
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  12. Motorace

    Motorace Rookie

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    #62 Motorace, Feb 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
     
  13. Motorace

    Motorace Rookie

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    #63 Motorace, Feb 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Where are the BATs now?

    Thanks for sharing your insights in such detail.
    I think the photos attached are the car you speak of...
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  14. mroz

    mroz Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
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    The BAT's are at the Blackhawk Museum, Calif.
     
  15. 410SA

    410SA F1 Veteran

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Are you fellows done in your mutual circle jerkoff?
    Opinions are wonderful things! Please don't ever tone it down or pull in your claws or any other metaphor you care to apply here, otherwise this forum would turn into L Power where all the cultists bow down to the Great Tractor God and make obseqious gestures - and yes that is one hideous car!
     
  16. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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  17. Hubert1

    Hubert1 Karting

    Mar 24, 2006
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    France
    #67 Hubert1, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks Motorace to give the right place to the romantic Franco Scaglione.

    1/ 1953 - Introducing the new Arnolt-Bristol to Nuccio Bertone.
    2/ 1953 - The 166 MM Abarth was driven by Franco Cornacchia with the Scuderia Guastalla.
    I don't think there was any reason for the unique front light except for design. Maybe to avoid bad aerodynamic effects with high fenders supporting the big front lights ?
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  18. Monoposto

    Monoposto Karting

    Aug 1, 2006
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    Motorace, what about Scaglione designs on Fiat chassis'?
    Say, 1100's??

    Maybe built by Stanguellini?

    Can you tell anything about that?? Would appreciate that!
     
  19. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    There is a whole series of books done on special bodied Fiats by Alessandro Sannia. Here is a link to his site

    http://www.fiatfuoriserie.it/index_e.htm

    Here is a link to a photo of the Scaglione designed Stanguellini coupe (for Bertone)

    http://www.fiatfuoriserie.it/Libri/FS04/4-01.jpg


    There are also a bunch of books done on oddball Italian cars by Fornai. I don't have a direct website or an e-mail, but Gilena ( a motoring bookstore in Brescia) stocks them. Here is the full list..

    Title

    CARROZZIERI ITALIANI (VOL 1) 25,00

    CARROZZIERI ITALIANI (VOL 2) 25,00

    CARROZZIERI ITALIANI (VOL 3) 25,00

    FRUA 1944-1983 25,00

    GIOVANNI MICHELOTTI 1921-1979 28,00

    LANCIA ARDEA E APPIA 25,00

    MORETTI 1928-1986 25,00

    SIATA 1926-1974 25,00

    VIGNALE 1946-1974 26,00

    (Prices in Euros, plus post)

    http://www.gilena.com/negozio/home.asp?id=487102688&da= (click on search by author and type in Fornai)


    I have some of these books and think they are well worth the price...
     
  20. Ed_Long

    Ed_Long Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
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    Ed Long
    I think you are referring to the 1953 Pegaso Z-102 "Thrill" (with two-tone red & black body by Touring) which debuted at the same 1953 Turin Auto Show as Scaglione's Bertone BAT 5......

    Dan:
    That's the same car that we saw at Pebble Beach. There were several Pegaso's there and the one we got most excited about was the red and black one with the curious fins or hoops extending from the rear fenders to the roof. They were displayed in the southeast corner of the concours area, behind several rows of Ferraris, all of which were quite exquisite. There was a spectacular California spyder there. This would have been about 1982. I believe that I still have the event program somewhere in my files.

    Thanks for sharing, wonderful!
    Ed
     
  21. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    FYI, the Coma Cros book on Pegaso has been finally redone and re-released as a 2 volume set (but it's pricey). It covers every car ever built. Off the top of my head I think it was only 84 cars total...
     
  22. Monoposto

    Monoposto Karting

    Aug 1, 2006
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    Thank you very much for your info!! I'm also nuts about the etceterini and small series or oneoffs from the big players, always trying to expand my archive.
    I know Gilena, they visit almost every indoor event in Northern Europe... unbelievable. I'll be looking for the mentioned titles in about a week when they'll be in Antwerp.

    Do you have by any chance, of the above, this book: Fiat Nuova 1100 fuoriserie? I'm looking for all info regarding this car:
    http://www.fiatfuoriserie.it/Libri/FS04/4-01.jpg

    Some say 9 examples were build by Stanguellini but I cannot verify this. I know one (red) was exhibited by the Luigi Bonfanti Museum back in 1997.
     
  23. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    The Sannia book on the 1100/103 "1100 Nuova" does not really give any new information, but the car is included in the book.

    According to Orsini's Stanguellini book, the main reason for the introduction of the new version of the Bertone Stanguellini berlinetta was the launch of the fiat 1100/103 in 1954 (I think it was actually 1953). The version that went into production resembled the styling sketch but the car failed to arouse the same enthusiasm that greated the original version.

    When Orsini is speaking of the earlier version, I think he is speaking of the 1947 car based on the 508C and not the 1100/103; a 2 door berlina with a strange nose. The Orsini book also shows Scaglione's original design sketch for the 1100/103 based "2nd series" car and it is much better looking than the cars actually built; especially the nose. There are also photos of the car that was at Bonfanti in Orsini's book.

    I also show 9 coupes were made, but it doesn't state the number made in either Orsini's or Sannia's books.

    Here is the original Scaglione drawing for the car

    http://new.photos.yahoo.com/etceterinidoctor/photo/294928804244783852/0


    Galena should have all the books by both Sannia and Fornai. I have most of the ones by Sannia, but only the Siata and Moretti books by Fornai. I will eventually order the rest, but right now my priority is Adriaensen's Fiat 8V/Siata book, and that is something like 400 Euros, plus post....
     
  24. Motorace

    Motorace Rookie

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    #74 Motorace, Feb 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Scaglione did at least one Fiat 1100 custom body while he worked for Bertone, but I'll have to do some research on that one and get back to you.

    When I think of cars that Scaglione designed for Stanguellini, I mostly recall the 1963 Colibri Record-setting car powered by a 1-cylinder Moto Guzzi engine of 248 cc (See picture). It's beautifully curvaceous.

    Please say more about the nature of your interest - is your interest more in Fiat 1100's or in Stanguellini's?
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  25. Monoposto

    Monoposto Karting

    Aug 1, 2006
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    Wow! Great pictures. You really seem to know lots about Scaglione/Bertone!!

    My only interest is this car (this particular example has a Stanguellini logo):
    [​IMG]

    I've seen one other.

    In the Bertone book (90 years) by Luciano Greggio there's also a picture of this car. I would like to know anything about it...
     

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