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Feasible project?

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by preston400i, Jan 19, 2007.

  1. preston400i

    preston400i Karting

    Dec 26, 2006
    131
    My extra body tub has one like that. It's cracked in several places but I think it will work for fitting. If not I will definitely take you up on that offer.

    If it's only cracked in one corner, can one of those glass repair guys fix it?
     
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  3. ricar116

    ricar116 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2005
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    Rick Carr
    Wow didn't even think about that!?
     
  4. moserpe

    moserpe Karting

    Jul 20, 2006
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    Peter Moser
    Hi Preston,

    Reading through the workshop manual, i have just come across the following statement:

    quote

    NOTE: Cylinder heads can be removed with engine on the vehicle without detaching the timing case.

    unquote

    Hope this will give you some more confidence to get your car rebuilt

    Regards

    Peter
     
  5. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Good luck if you believe this. Just because it's possible doesn't mean you should.
     
  6. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    LOL. Kinda like removing your tonsils through your nose? Pull the motor out Preston, you'll will be glad you did in the end. Call it your cost of admission. Then when you see those old pictures of those totally filthy greasy mechanics standing there smiling next to an almost equally filthy Enzo, you will feel a bond.
     
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  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    They can. It is designed to be done that way but the earlier comment about the heads being stuck to the studs was right on. It will require dynamite to get them off. It will be very ugly. If it was coming in the door of my shop I would want 10g's up front because starting in on a job like that for some reason suddenly the money stops flowing.

    Also I bet because of the stuck heads the motor will be out in the end anyway.

    By the time the motor is running again that 10g's will have just been a down payment. That car is going to get what we used to call the money hose turned on it.


    There is a common theme in this thread. The people that have been there say don't do it.

    BTDT. Life is too short.
     
  9. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Did you ever pressure test the cooling system?
     
  10. preston400i

    preston400i Karting

    Dec 26, 2006
    131
    It's funny how back-and-forth this thread has been. First it was bail out, then it wasn't so bad, now the naysayers are becoming vocal again.

    I have yet to pressure test the cooling system. I have to admit that I've never done that, so someone will have to give me a reader's digest version of the procedure.

    I did do a quick and dirty compression check last week. It wasn't fully warmed up or anything, but I got numbers between 130 and 150. My 9:1 Alfa engine tests at 160 or so, so an 8.8:1 Ferrari should be slightly less, right? What figure should I be looking for? I'm at 4600 feet elevation - how do you compensate a pressure reading for altitude? Plugs all looked OK if slightly rich. No evidence of any water in the combustion chambers.

    I ran the engine with the radiator cap off to see if it was burping air into the cooling system, but it actually did the opposite of what I thought: Rev the engine, water level goes down. Let off, it comes back up. Weird.
     
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  12. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    Jan 23, 2006
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    Oh I still think your nuts to continue, but you should hear some of the crazy things I've done....so in reality I don't have much room to talk.

    Wanted to point out that roof section on ebay for you just in case you're going forward.
     
  13. preston400i

    preston400i Karting

    Dec 26, 2006
    131
    I Already have a roof section just like it. Thanks though.
     
  14. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #87 2NA, Mar 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Pressure test is fall off a log simple to do but will require you to borrow or buy a cooling system tester, see photo (a glorified bicycle pump with gauge connected to a fitting that replaces the radiator cap). You may know someone that has one. Fill the cooling system to the top, attach the tester and pump it up (probably 15 psig or whatever the radiator cap is supposed to be rated for). Observe for leaks (especially at the radiator fitting, mine always seems to need fiddling to get a seal). Watch the pressure and look carefully for leaks (an inspection mirror and flashlight will be necessary). If you're lucky the pressure will hold and nothing will come out anywhere important. This is not as conclusive on a cold engine as it could be at operating temperature but working with near boiling coolant is not recommended.

    If you have leaks the most likely places are: radiator, hoses, heater core (impossible to see without some work but the sweet smell in the car gives it away), water pump seal, cylinder heads (top or bottom sides) cylinder liners where they seal against block (leaks into oil).

    Give it a try, it won't hurt anything and it's a lot less expensive than tearing that motor down (you really don't want to go there if you ever want to drive the car in this lifetime).

    If this checks out (or you fix the several bad hose connections that you might find) you could try getting it hot (not overheated) and repeating the inspection using the natural pressure of the hot cooling system (best done on a lift, wear gloves and glasses and expect a burn or two). If this checks out, you can proceed with the next thing on your list.

    As far as compression, those numbers are okay. What is important is that they are reasonably similar. 130 psi isn't bad for an old car (a hot engine and another test might be better).
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  15. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    Okay, Im zipping up my fire suit and dousing myself with fire retardent gel. I have never taken apart a Ferrari V-12. Jags, yes, both sixes and 12's, and V-8 Ferrari's, but never a chained cam V-12. I would seriously like to know what is so difficult about working on one. Other than the fact its made out of hard to find and rediculously expensive parts, what would make it any harder to work on than somthing simularly constructed? At its basics its still just nuts and bolts, right?

    Preston, I am still hoping you give it a go. In may not make an financial sense today, maybe not right away tomorrow either. But the ability to have a car like that sitting there for that small an investment that you can learn on is unique. In the entire world, how many 7500 dollar V-12's are around you can tinker with without a lot of fear? Not very darn many. Think of it as that sick and ugly stray dog you know wont make it unless you take it in. They will make dog food out of it if you turn it loose.
     
  16. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm not suggesting he shouldn't fix it if it needs it but a man's got to know his limitations (as Dirty Harry would say). That 12 banger isn't the hardest thing to work on but it's FAR from a beginner project. If the motor's really OK (relative to everything else) then there's a lot better chance he can afford time and money to make something fun to be proud of.

    Sorry Preston, for treating you like the ''third person".
     
  17. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    How about a few pictures?
     
  18. preston400i

    preston400i Karting

    Dec 26, 2006
    131
    I have some pictures; I'll try to get them posted soon.

    I'm still hoping to give it a go, but the whole thing hinges on the health of the motor. If it's seriously sick -and it's looking more and more like it isn't- then fixing it could easily cost as much as starting over with a nice example. I don't mind spending some time and money to own a Ferrari, but there's limits.

    At this point I'm leaning toward the 'fix it cheap and enjoy it' route, and if it breaks, so what? Is it a gamble? Sure. Will a cost-cutting restoration hurt the resale? Absolutely. But, as long as I make it nice enough that the next guy doesn't see it as a parts car, then I've done my good deed by saving the car from certain annihilation.

    Thanks for the pressure test info. I think doing it cold is the key, because that's the only time it leaks. When it's warm and running, it's dry as a bone.

    Artvonne, maybe your quesion was rhetorical, but the only V12's I can think of that are any cheaper than mine are the Jag XJS/XJ12 and the BMW 750. I've never seen a running Ferrari - 8 or 12 - for less than mine cost. And I definitely agree: A 12 works just like anything else. There are more parts, and said parts cost 10 times what they do for an ordinary car, but the mechanical principles that apply are the same.
     
  19. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    Preston,

    When looking at the pressure test numbers, in my opinion, look at the spread. The range you posted 130 - 150 for an engine that has not been regularly run and has not had a recent valve adjustment is pretty good. For comparison, my 330's numbers are 150 - 165 (going on memmory or a test done 3 years ago at a lower elevation).

    However, to me the real test is the leak down test but in my opinion, don't bother on this until you adjust the valves.

    Regards,

    Art S.


    PS. The comment about effecting the price by doing a cheap resto made me laugh. Until prices move, the less you spend, the less underwater you will be. Besides, right now it's worth more in pieces than as a car so any imrovement is a good thing.
     
  20. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    I'm encouraged by that news.
     
  21. aidanparte

    aidanparte Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2004
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    Preston, you might be able to sell it to Dave Stacy - he needs plenty of headroom! Seriously, good luck with your restoration.

    Aidan
     
  22. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    HEY!!!
    I resemble that remark :)
     
  23. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    It's the new 400i Zagato double-bubble. ;)

    Regards,

    Art S.

    PS. Don't drive too fast or you'll pop the back window out of it.
     
  24. preston400i

    preston400i Karting

    Dec 26, 2006
    131
    Ooooh, never thought about that. Thanks for the reminder! Given the sticker shock of a new windshield, popping the rear window out would definitely ruin a guy's weekend.
     
  25. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Not too bad. It looks to me like an opportunity for a creative approach (just my opinion). I'd probably think about making a roadster out of it (Chip Foose style). It needs a lot of metalwork (getting the right side straight will be harder than grafting on a new top).
     
  26. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    ...and good luck finding one...
     

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