Father-Son Restoration Project: Could Our 250 GTE Be a Lost Prototype? | FerrariChat

Father-Son Restoration Project: Could Our 250 GTE Be a Lost Prototype?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by BerningTrailers, Oct 12, 2024.

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  1. BerningTrailers

    Jan 21, 2024
    30
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Nathan B
    Father-Son Restoration Project: Could Our 250 GTE Be a Lost Prototype?


    Hello everyone!


    My dad and I are lifelong Ferrari enthusiasts who’ve embarked on a father-son journey to restore a 1960 Ferrari 250 GTE 2+2 Series I. This car has always been a dream for us, and working on it together has been an amazing experience. We could definitely not afford a restored car which is ultimately what led us to buy 2263 GT, which had been stripped of its drivetrain. Little did we know at the time that our project might be more special than we initially thought.


    As we’ve dug deeper into the car’s history, we’ve started to believe that our 250 GTE, chassis number 2263 GT with Pininfarina body number 2263, could be a lost prototype!


    Here’s Our Story and What We’ve Found So Far:


    1. The Discovery: We found this old relic buried in the barn of a Porsche and Ferrari collector in rural Indiana. We purchased the car for a very fair price, and intended to bring it back to as close to original condition as we could afford. Of course, an original 250GTE transmission and engine is quite expensive! So instead, we purchased and planned to install a 1969 Ferrari 365 GT engine in the car (12281 GT). This seemed like a natural consideration for enhancing our GTE. However, as we began disassembling the car, we noticed “2263” handwritten in chalk in many areas of the car, which initially piqued our curiosity.
    2. Unusual Engine Configuration: Soon after, we discovered that our car was originally equipped with a Tipo 128E engine, not the standard Tipo 128F found in production 250 GTEs. The Tipo 128E was primarily used in earlier models like the 250 GT Coupé and Cabriolet, making its presence in a GTE highly unusual.
    3. Possible Prototype Status: Chassis 2261 GT is a confirmed 250 GTE prototype with a Tipo 128E engine. Given the close chassis numbers, it’s plausible that Ferrari built multiple GTE prototypes simultaneously (which was common practice for them back then).
    4. Multiple Consecutive Prototypes: At the time, Ferrari had a history of producing several prototypes right before official production began, like with the 250 Testa Rossa, 250 GT SWB, and 275 GTB. They often tested different configurations to refine their models.
    5. Secretive Practices: Ferrari was known to be secretive about their prototypes, sometimes rebadging and selling them without disclosing their true origins. This makes tracking down information incredibly challenging, but also exciting!
    6. Our Car’s Condition: Unfortunately, the car was stripped of its drivetrain for other rebuilds before we acquired it. However, we have the original interior and almost all of the original trim and interior parts (except for the original dash and gauges). And overall the body of the car is in pretty nice shape.
    7. Our Dilemma: If our car is indeed a prototype, we want to restore it to its original condition out of respect for its historical significance. This changes our restoration plan significantly and will likely extend the project’s timeline (and strain our resources a bit).
    8. Our Research Efforts: We’ve spent hundreds of hours researching, digging through forums, books, and any resources we can find (if it’s out there, we’ve read it). Despite our efforts, concrete information is scarce due to the secretive nature of prototype records. This in and of itself actually seems to point toward it being a lost prototype.
    9. Why We’re Reaching Out: We’re turning to this fantastic community for help. We know that many of you have deep knowledge and experience with vintage Ferraris, and we’re hoping you might have insights or information that could aid us.
    10. How You Can Help: If you have any knowledge about chassis 2263 GT, prototypes from that era, or how to access historical records, we’d greatly appreciate it.
    11. Expert Opinions: We welcome any and all thoughts on the likelihood of our car being a late prototype based on its features.
    12. Restoration Advice: We also would appreciate guidance on properly restoring a car with potential historical significance.
    13. Why This Means So Much to Us: Working on this car isn’t just a project; it’s a shared passion that’s brought my dad and I even closer. The possibility that we’re restoring a piece of Ferrari history makes it even more special. Imagine discovering a lost Ferrari prototype together! We’re excited to bring you all along on this journey, regardless of the outcome. And we are not going to sell the car. We intend to keep it forever. Whether our 250 GTE turns out to be a prototype or just a very early model, we’re grateful to be part of this community and eager to learn from all of you.
    14. I will post some photos of the car as well, showing the chalk markings and other details we’ve found. Thank you so much for taking the time to read our story. Any and all feedback is welcome!
    For the love of fast, red, Italian cars,

    ~ Nathan

    P.S. My dad used to take me to the ‘Ferraris on Oak Street’ events in downtown Chicago before I could even walk. He often tells the story of how I would scream “Ferradi, Ferradi, dada look Ferradi!” Now, he owns three Ferraris, and I have two. This project is a dream come true for both of us, and we’re grateful for any help you can offer!
     
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  2. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    24,742
    #5 Marcel Massini, Oct 12, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2024
    2263 GT:
    Not a prototype but an early car and the 38th of a total of 954 units built.
    Series One car.
    The Pinin Farina body number 39739 matches with the pix posted. It is not 2263 GT.
    Original exterior color: Nero 10036 MM with grey roof (yes, two tone, Grigio Glace 16201).
    Original interior color: Nero VM 8500 leather.
    Factory build start 18 October 1960.
    Factory completion date 25 January 1961.
    Engine type 128 E, internal #66 E.
    Delivered new to Ferrari Representatives of California.
    First owner Mr. Anthony.
    Advertised for sale in Ferrari Market Letter, Volume 1 Number 7, on 27 March 1976, by somebody in L.A. area, with a Chevy engine and automatic transmission (see below).

    The original frame/chassis #2263 GT was used in the late 1980s to build a replica of a 250 GT SWB Berlinetta, one of four made by Mark Gerish, at the time said SWB Replica was fitted with engine #2225 GT, raced by Dr. Tom Murphy and occasionally seen at Elkhart Lake/WI and at Grand Rapids/MI. Murphy crashed it badly. That 250 GT SWB Berlinetta replica later turned up in South Africa.

    I therefore assume that you have just the body BUT not the original frame/chassis and not the original engine.

    Marcel Massini

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  3. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    24,742
    #6 Marcel Massini, Oct 12, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2024
    Original engine 2263 GT was last seen in a poor "250 TR60" REPLICA in England 1997.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  4. readplays

    readplays F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2008
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    New York City
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    Dave Powers
    Very cool!
     
  5. Zanny1

    Zanny1 Formula 3
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    Dec 19, 2003
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    Excellent story. Will be following this!
     
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  6. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Dec 1, 2000
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    Thank you so much @Marcel Massini for providing the OP this info! What a great story no matter how it goes.
     
  7. INRange

    INRange F1 World Champ
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    Jan 27, 2014
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    JD
    Marcel......what am I missing? When you say the original frame has been removed......most of the car appears to be unibody construction with the exception of the chassis frame (seen in the photo below with the orange strap on it). I could see that being changed especially if it was damaged in the racing accident that you referenced. As to what replaced it.......where should the owner look to find the chassis number on that frame?

    It just seems unlikely that someone would have fabricated a frame that looks like that. In addition.....you do state that this is not 2263 GT (which is what his VIN plate has on it). I presume that you say that because it does not have the original chassis frame under it. That raises some interesting questions regarding repair work and what legally defines the car.

    Ferrari on more than one occasion has taken a damaged vehicle and completely rebuilt it using the VIN plate from the damaged vehicle.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    24,742
    #11 Marcel Massini, Oct 12, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2024
    The metal piece with the orange strap on it for sure has zero to do with the Ferrari factory 250 GTE chassis number 2263 GT we are talking here. That is some amateurish frame or from some other vehicle where the old GTE bodywork was put on.
    It appears to me that OP does not have the original Ferrari GTE frame 2263 GT, he seems to have the old body only. And the interior.
    As said before the actual original frame 2263 GT (and most probably also some old U.S. title) was shortened by 20 cms and then used to build a 250 GT SWB Berlinetta Replica, work done by Mark Gerish (SWB replica builder). The original engine 2263 GT went elsewhere (see post #6). A Ferrari 250 GTE 2+2 Coupé PF has 2600 mm wheelbase, a 250 SWB Berlinetta Scaglietti has 2400 mm wheelbase, hence the cut out of 20 cms/200 millimeters and also the name short wheelbase (passo corto in Italian). Totally different animal.
    The Mark Gerish-built SWB Replica (continuing to use the identity of 2263 GT) went to Dr. Tom Murphy who raced and crashed it. That replica later went to South Africa.
    Left over is the old bodywork and interior (OP has that).
    Unfortunately (between 1970 and today) many dozens of old, abused, wrecked and inexpensive 250 GTE's were butchered and used as donor cars for the building of 250 SWB Berlinettas Replicas, 250 TR Replicas or 250 California Spider Replicas.

    On an early GTE such as 2263 GT the chassis number is stamped on the left front corner. Here's a sample photo of another GTE (2227 GT).
    That stamping is key and must have the correct fonts and layout, of course.

    What legally defines a car? In most countries and cases it is the original frame with the proper authentic stamping plus the paperwork for it. We have been thru this a million times already, please use the search function on fchat. Google may also help.

    Marcel Massini

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  9. INRange

    INRange F1 World Champ
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    Jan 27, 2014
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    Marcel,

    I appreciate the response and your attempt at sarcasm. I'm not familiar with early models and how they were cut up and modified as you are. It seems it may be a venue issue when the frame goes one way, the engine goes another and the body ends up in a garage........ yet the frame (least expensive of the three components) dictates the providence of the car.

    I'm curious if the OP has a US title for the car (even though he only has the body and the original VIN plate).

    The reason I am asking has nothing to do with searching Google or Fchat for that matter. Legally.....the body is in Florida. Florida has very specific laws regarding VIN plates and Titles. In fact they cite in their law the manufacturer's VIN plate as determining Title for the vehicle not other components of the vehicle. Other US States differ on this body of law.

    If the OP does not have a Title for the body.....that puts it into a different category of salvage/rebuilt which means they can restore the car as well as use it but it will have a salvage/rebuilt title associated with it. There is also an Appeal process in Florida to restore the Title to the VIN number if the Title has been lost.

    When a Title is issued in Florida......they check a US centric database for the VIN. I doubt they would have a record for any part of the car in that database based upon its history.

    How do I know this......well I used to live in Palm Beach.

    So feel free to Google Florida law .......;)
     
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  10. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Feb 22, 2004
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    Tom Wiggers
    a nice project for a 250 GTE Largo Hot Rod with a bespoke tube chassis and a LS6 engine. Maybe some nice project for S Klub LA

    If someone else wants to go for it, I have a same 250 GTE body for sale

    It will never be a Ferrari 250 GTE.......
     
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  11. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    A title is not issued for the bodywork, it would be for a frame (chassis).
    OP may have some title but still no (genuine) frame.

    Marcel Massini
     
  12. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
    85,536
    Texas!
    Looking over both shoulders, Dude, you don't wanna mess with Telaio. They make the drug cartels look tame.

    Seriously, in the vintage world, the original frame is everything. If you have a couple of days to waste, go read the 0846 tread. Everything on that car is not original. But if Glickenhaus could have proved the frame was original, it would have been accepted as the original race car. The fact that Glickenhaus got a NY state title for the car is meaningless.

    None takes away from what the OP wants to do. Man, this project has a long way to go. You probably should contact Tom Yang.
     
  13. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    Dec 28, 2005
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    The OP can verify whether or not they have a title? In years past requirements varied widely from state to state. Thirty years ago I looked at a Jaguar "C-type" that used the engine or cylinder head # as the VIN. The car was in Florida.
    Restoration/recreation of this GTE would be a Sisyphean task.
     
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  14. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Why would they not have moved the data plate into the replica that uses the frame?
     
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  15. BerningTrailers

    Jan 21, 2024
    30
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Nathan B
    I appreciate all of your input and responses. We do have an original 250 GTE frame, but it is not for 2263 GT. As far as whether or not the car is a 250 GTE, I think it’s a stretch to say it isn’t given that it was built by Pininfarina in 1960. Of course, we don’t have the original frame, engine or transmission. And it would be quite a task to get them I’m sure and involve a lot of capital!! I suppose the old adage “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” applies here. Given that I do have an original 250 GTE frame as well, I guess we can assume that it is still a 250 GTE and can and will always be one.
    With that said, I still don’t believe I’ve received the clarification I’m looking for. This is the original body with the original interior of # 2263 GT. And like I said, it came from the factory with a Tipo 128 E engine. My main curiosity is whether or not that indicates that it was a pre-production prototype. The research I’ve done indicates that a very low number of 250 GTEs came from the factory with a Tipo 128 E.
    Regardless, the car will be restored to as near to factory condition as possible. Perhaps we will wait a while until we can acquire an authentic engine and transmission. Until then, the research continues…

    Regarding the title work— there are a number of states in the US where you can show up with the car, get a VIN Inspection and receive a clear title. I do not currently have a title for the car, but it is not only possible but inevitable that it will have one when the time comes.
     
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  16. BerningTrailers

    Jan 21, 2024
    30
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Nathan B
    that’s a great question! Probably because they titled it with a different data plate, although I’m honestly not sure. The fact that the plate was still on the body was surprising to me.
     
  17. BerningTrailers

    Jan 21, 2024
    30
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Nathan B
    My guess is that this is what happened with the engine and possibly the frame as well.
     
  18. BerningTrailers

    Jan 21, 2024
    30
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Nathan B
    definitely a long way to go! That’s why I’m grateful that I also have a running and driving Ferrari, otherwise I’m not sure I could bear the delay
     
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  19. BerningTrailers

    Jan 21, 2024
    30
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Nathan B
    I do have a genuine 250 GTE frame, but it is not from 2263 GT.
     
  20. BerningTrailers

    Jan 21, 2024
    30
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Nathan B
    I definitely appreciate your input, but given that I have an original 250 GTE frame (not pictured) as well as an original 250 GTE body, I can assure you that it is and will always be a 250 GTE. With all due respect!
     
  21. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    24,742
    So you are claiming you do have an original 250 GTE frame (not pictured) but it is not the one from 2263 GT?
    Please post a photo showing the stamped number on the frame (front left corner), as in my sample pic posted earlier (post #11). Thank you very much.
    And again and sorry to say, 2263 GT was not a prototype or a pre-production car. It was a stock standard early 250 GTE. The 38th GTE built in chassis number sequence. See also the last two digits of the Pinin Farina body number 39739.
    Thank you.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  22. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    24,742
    Simply because they made a brand new (nicer) reproduction tag.

    Marcel Massini
     
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