F430 Header Failure (it CAN happen to you!) | FerrariChat

F430 Header Failure (it CAN happen to you!)

Discussion in '360/430' started by Trent, Aug 1, 2012.

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  1. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
    2,013
    Indialantic, FL
    Full Name:
    Trent
    The headers have failed on my 2006 F430 Spider. This happened moments after leaving a meet-n-greet where Anzir and I discussed F430 header failures. My car had the MK1s replaced in June 2008, likely with MK1s, not sure when the MK2s were released but the technical service bulletin 1661 was released in June 2008, so likely on its second set of MK1s, and in need of its third set of headers!

    Header Failure?:
    =============
    The F430 headers are known to fail and there is a service bulletin 1661 from Ferrari documenting the issue. This is believed to be due to strain in the exhaust system and has been covered here on FChat quite extensively. They fail by cracking internally and/or externally. The symptoms include white powder (external failure of heat shield letting the white insulation out) or ticking sound from exhaust pulses leaking straight to the engine area. Also reports of a fuel smell at cold start due to gas escaping before the pre-cat. The exhaust headers (manifolds) in the F430 are fairly unique because they turn UP instead of DOWN. And as they turn up they have a pre-cat just a few inches from the exhaust valve on the upward slope. This means any objects that are a result of the failure (like weld pieces) will get trapped between the pre-cat and the exhaust valve, and gravity will pull them toward the exhaust valve. Then during exhaust gas reversion gasses from the exhaust are sucked into the combustion chamber, possible taking any foreign objects with them. If this happens you will have a much louder audible Clunking sound, like a small hammer hitting the block. If you get this; shut down and have it towed to dealer. Do not drive it. If you just get the ticking sound you can possibly still drive it, but should schedule a dealer service visit for a smoke test of the headers.

    Symptom:
    =============
    I was driving and after a hard load (100% throttle) from 20mph to 100mph I started hearing a ticking sound that varied with engine rpm, loud enough to be obvious in the cabin with the top down and excessive wind noise. The next morning, engine cold, when I went to investigate the noise it was not there. During a short drive the sound reappeared and then changed significantly after another hard pull from 0-40mph at 100% load. It sounded like a small hammer on the block, I suspected a foreign object in the engine or piston to valve contact. The hammering sound was from the rear driver cylinders. I shut the car down within seconds or 10-20 revolutions. This all happened in a few miles of driving. No white powder was seen in the engine area.

    The clunking sound was coming from the driver side so I removed plugs 5 and 6. There was a visible foreign object in cyl 6, stuck to the top of the head, not sitting on the piston crown.

    I blew out Cyl 5 and 6 using two methods.

    1. Compressed air. Seemed mildly effective. Inserted 5mm hose into plug hole, blew with 50-70psi.
    2. Unplugging Fuel Injectors 5 and 6 and starting car with plugs removed letting the extreme compression evacuate the cyl through the plug-hole and valve exits. This seemed much more effective. Ran for 5 seconds at low rpm.

    I was not able to observe any foreign objects leaving the cyl, but in both processes above it would have been difficult to see something leaving at those pressures and speeds.

    If my hypothesis is correct I suspect there is loose manifold debris trapped between the exhaust manifold pre-cat and the exhaust valves. This matter could have been pulled into the cylinder during my high load step off during exhaust gas reversion. If this is correct there will be loose material in the headers if they are removed. I have asked the dealer to collect any foreign objects found for inspection so i can determine the metallurgy of the objects.

    Next Issue: The repair
    ==================
    I sent the car to Ferrari of Ft Lauderdale (7/27/12). They have been a pleasure to deal with and very helpful. They came back with a repair estimate of $19K, citing many other issues they think need to be addressed other than the headers. Including AC Compressor, Tires, and Clutch, i.e. the clutch was worn 46-75%. The Clutch is strong; never replace them before they slip IMO. They claim the wear is between 46 and 75% worn;
    A. Their accuracy +/- 25%
    B. Worst case they want me to replace a clutch with 25% of the friction material still intact.
    C. Best case they want me to replace a clutch with 53% material intact. Thats less than half worn.
    I have read that the flywheel will need to be resurfaced in most cases, and thus I will run the clutch until it slips under full load.

    Funny how a warranty replacement of the headers somehow reaches $19K in a hurry. This does not include pulling the engine apart or any of that nonsense.

    Next they would not replace the header under warranty because they claim my F430 is a grey market car even though they have been servicing it since 2007, and they show it serviced in NH at 93 miles in their system and in car fax in Jan 2006. The car has been in FL since 7/2006. I am not holding this against Ferrari Ft Lauderdale, its the ferrari system telling them the car is grey; grey = "The repair area is different than the sale area". Interesting that in 2006 the USD was weak against the EU and thus grey market imports from Europe were not financially beneficial, unlike back when the 308s were in Vogue.

    ***I would still use Ferrari of Ft Lauderdale for service and they have treated me quite well. Their flat bed service is "in house" and very inexpensive and professional.

    I contacted the dealer I purchased it from; Ferrari of Palm Beach, and conferenced the service Mgr and my salesman. They assure me its not a grey market car and it has lived its life in the USA, for which I agree all facts point to, besides the ferrari service computer system. They said "no problem" just send the car here and we will both warranty the headers and contact Ferrari to try and fix the glitch in reporting grey market. The car will be shipped to them this Thursday (8/2/2012).

    New Issue:
    ==========
    The MK2 headers are on back order with no ETA. Lets just assume we are talking about a 4-8 week delay to get the MK2s. Lets also assume my plan was to get the MK2s replaced under warranty, then remove them immediately and replace them with stronger, aftermarket headers from Fabspeed ($3500) or Capristo ($5900), then sell the MK2 headers as "new" on ebay for $1-2K [note: outside the USA these headers are NOT covered under warranty, thus there is likely a demand] . I was going to do this to offset the cost of the aftermarket headers, and because after a long period, replacing headers can be tricky, and if they have just replaced them it will likely be easier (small thing). *I will be installing the Capristo exhaust brackets ($550) either way.

    So I have a few options:
    1. Have the car shipped back to me on Thursday. Replacing the MKx failed headers with aftermarket headers, and just forgoing the resale of the MK2s.
    2. Just be patient and leave the car at F Palm Beach until the MK2s are available

    So what about the foreign objects in the Cyl?
    ===================================
    The Piston is quite strong. The valves are very strong when closed, which they always are at TDC (Top Dead Center) where the contact would have been made. The object(s) were "hammered" for a very short duration with no torque on the cylinder wall, thus likely no scratching or marring. So as long as I make sure I remove all foreign objects from every Cyl before driving the vehicle I am satisfied there will be no damage. I will be inspecting each Cyl with a new 5mm borescope camera after the headers are replaced to verify the integrity of the components. I will also do a compression and leak-down on every Cyl. The combustion chamber is extremely strong and the least fragile area of a motor.

    What should you do?
    ==================
    1. Buy and install the Capristo exhaust brackets ($550), they could very well prevent even the MK1s from failing by relieving the strain in the exhaust system.
    2. Listen to your car and know its sounds. If you think your header is failing get it replaced with an MK2 or aftermarket header. If you drive it too long after failure you could have engine damage. All of my issues happened in just a few miles, from first ticking sound to weld getting sucked into Cyl.
    3. Preemptively install an aftermarket header without the pre-cat and made from better materials, design and workmanship.

    Header Dictionary:
    ===============
    >MK1: Weak, have or will fail on most 430s that are driven (some are not). When they fail, the welds come apart and lose weld material gets sucked into combustion chamber, causing damage, sometimes $50K worth [see ChampIII]. This header has an emission based pre-cat reducing horsepower and sound.
    >MK2: Same as MK1 when they fail, but stronger and much less likely to fail. This header also has an emission based pre-cat reducing horsepower and sound.
    >Fabspeed/Capristo: 15 pounds lighter, very strong, better material, no pre-cats so louder and more horsepower and torque. If they fail it will not cause debris to get sucked in motor because without the pre-catalytic converter the debris will be blown down the exhaust and get trapped in the main Catalytic converters. The Capristo includes a heat blanket for the price, thus making it not apples-apples comparison. Both units seem very well built.

    Images:
    =========
    The first two images are after plug removal. The last image is after I inserted an 8mm magnet into the plug hole to try and retrieve foreign metallic objects. The magnetic extension dislodged the foreign object, but did NOT retrieve it. This is either due to bad luck or the fact it is a non magnetic object. I own two color video borescopes (aka snake cameras), neither of which will fit through the 9mm plug hole. I have ordered a 5mm unit for final inspections.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Mo T

    Mo T Formula Junior

    Nov 26, 2011
    478
    Saudi Arabia
    Full Name:
    Mohammed
    Sorry to hear about your header issues Trent.

    I would leave the clutch alone until the slip is obvious and then replace the clutch and resurface the flywheel, there is too much variance in reading accuracy and that could be thousands of happy miles before further action is required.

    Capristo brackets are a must with the stock system, however replacing the headers with a Capristo unit seems tempting in your particular case, no more broken headers + more HP + weight savings ... and you still get to sell the MK2's, good idea I think.
     
  3. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner


    I have them, Genuine Ferrari, in stock at Ricambi America.

    .
     
  4. Financialman

    Financialman Formula 3

    Sep 8, 2005
    1,841
    San Jose CA
    Full Name:
    Dan Carpenter
    Great post! Very helpful for 430 owners.
     
    JSP likes this.
  5. big_guy

    big_guy F1 Rookie

    Sep 9, 2007
    3,190
    Ontario, Canada
    Trent -- one small correction. You say that the MK1 headers are not warrantied outside the USA. This in fact is not true. They are warrantied in Canada, for 8 years. I have a 2005 430, the headers just failed, Ferrari of Quebec will be replacing them under warranty.

    I can confirm that the headers are on back order from the factory.
     
  6. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/warr95fs.txt

    Tell them if they don't get the car back to you within the time allowed by lemon laws for a covered warrantee repair which the exhaust manifold is to give you back your money and keep the car.
     
  7. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
    2,013
    Indialantic, FL
    Full Name:
    Trent
    I sit corrected.

    Please let me know via this thread and/or PM when you get your headers from Ferrari so I will know they are shipping.
     
  8. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
    2,013
    Indialantic, FL
    Full Name:
    Trent
    Interesting information and thanks, but this is my Ferrari and I will be keeping it. Money is worthless to me, the car however has found a place in my family.
     
  9. Afonsolaw

    Afonsolaw Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2011
    1,908
    New jersey
    What year is your car and how many miles do you have on it?
     
  10. F430GT

    F430GT Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2005
    1,300
    Marco Island, FL
    Trent,

    The Mk1 headers are prone to failure, the mk2 (2008 and newer F430) are less prone to failure, but they will crack sooner or later. The fact that the Pre-cats are sitting so close to the headers and valvetrain is too much of a risk.

    Cats fail with time, and pieces will fall, the problem with cats next to the engine heads is the possible suction (highly possible) of debris and minor or major engine damage.

    I would consider the FabSpeed or Capristo headers, and just bypass the warranty claim to install headers that don't fix the risk of losing an engine.

    I went with Capristo due to the insulation heat shields (jackets), the 4-2-1 configuration and gains in the mid-range (gigantic gains in my Scuderia) and the risk reduction of catching fire with an oil leak from the multiple oil leak sources around the engine.

    The Capristo muffler mounts are a must as well.

    I'm running Capristo test pipes with the flexible middle section so no vibrations are passed to the Capristo headers, and either the RSC Tuning or stock mufflers.

    Ultimately, I will be running Capristo mufflers with the Capristo test pipes and Capristo headers, insulation on the headers and test pipes, this is the configuration that would produce the lowest possible vibrations, due to the lightness of the entire system, the robust Capristo headers, the flexible test pipes, and the Capristo muffler support on sprung mounts attached to the drivetrain (as they should) and not to the body (as they should not as body and engine/tranny don't have the same harmonic movement increasing risks of cracks).

    I did the headers installation myself, I won't do it again, it took me 2 days, I even had to make a special wrench and buy special tools, but with patience, it is easy work to get done. I did not remove the engine side panels, just the A/C compressor and slid the Capristo headers from the bottom.
     
  11. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
    2,013
    Indialantic, FL
    Full Name:
    Trent
    Year is listed, milage omission my bad.

    2006 F430 Spider RS/Cuoio 16K miles and pulls like crazy... ...chicks that is.

    So 16K miles and getting its THIRD set of quality Ferrari headers. From "actual" Ferrari exhaust system sales brochure "If you need headers real bad, Ferrari makes real bad headers.". But seriously there are so many header failures they cant keep the replacements in stock. I sure hope its true that abstinence makes the heart grow fonder!
     
  12. Testacojones

    Testacojones F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2003
    5,198
    Lecusay
    Money is never worthless, without it you wouldn't own a Ferrari. Too bad to hear about your car trouble but at least it wasn't catastrophic and you'll be back on the road shortly.
     
  13. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 13, 2009
    15,916
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Curt
    Sorry to hear about the family member in red.

    If the warranty will cover it.. why not have them replace it.

    If it were cheap ol' me and I had enough of the Ferrari headers and were to put capristo on.. I'd probably fill the cylinder with oil, use a metal pipe cleaner to clean the sides and then suck out the oil to remove hte metal particulates.

    Hope all works out well! BTW nice catch early on. You know your car!

    BTW. Money is not completely worthless.. when incinerated it provides heat and for whatever is hottie attractant..
     
  14. Afonsolaw

    Afonsolaw Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2011
    1,908
    New jersey
    Is there a service tech on here that would know how many hours would it take approximately to swap out a pair of stock 430 headers and put some capristos in along with the muffler brackets? Aproximatly of course!
     
  15. mr_bock

    mr_bock Formula 3

    Oct 27, 2006
    1,372
    FL full time
    Trent,

    I am sorry to hear about your header issue. I met you at Mat's Casbah, 2001 Titanium 360.

    My stock muffler developed cracks at the mounting brackets and the white dust was coming out.

    I bought Agency Power headers, Kinetix high flow CATS and FabSpeed muffler. I did the install myself. Getting the OEM headers was a pain... very slow going with a open end wrench, flipping it after every small pull while laying on the engine and using a small mirror to 'see'. I pulled the seats out to remove the panel behind to access only two header nuts that I could not reach from above.

    Good luck with your 430.

    It seems that Ferrari does not learn from the past and apply lessons learned to new designs. Next they will be out sourced to China. China already knows how to make crap products!!!
     
  16. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
    2,013
    Indialantic, FL
    Full Name:
    Trent
    Yes I remember you, nice to meet you; your 360 sounded great! It was a few minutes after leaving this very meeting at Matts Casbah, just climbing the Melbourne causeway that the header(s) failed. Anzir was there as well in the Rosso Corsa 430 Spider. Maybe I will throw a Hefferveisen Header Changing Party ;)
     
  17. big_guy

    big_guy F1 Rookie

    Sep 9, 2007
    3,190
    Ontario, Canada
    I was told approx 8 hours.
     
  18. big_guy

    big_guy F1 Rookie

    Sep 9, 2007
    3,190
    Ontario, Canada
    Will do.
     
  19. 355dreamer

    355dreamer F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 3, 2006
    10,469
    DC Metro
    Full Name:
    L.C.
    Sorry to hear about your issues, but it sounds as though you are a well informed consumer and will make sure that you are covered with products that should last a long time.

    I do find it interesting however. People love to say that the 355 has problems, and surely, in the 18 years since its launch, the bugs have been identified. Clearly, the subsequent cars also have issues that will arise in time. The pre-cat design on the 2000 and beyond Ferraris is a time bomb in my opinion.

    I hope people take notice early on, and fix this shortfall before it can cause greater damage. God knows how many 355s would have been saved by some preventative maintenance / header replacement.
     
  20. augustxke

    augustxke Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2009
    385
    MN
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    Is it true that this cannot happen on a scuderia because of a different design?
     
  21. yronZFF

    yronZFF Formula Junior
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 21, 2009
    749
    FIVE-O
    Full Name:
    Ron
    Sorry to hear this Trent!

    I have an '05 F430 Spider with 4000 miles and original MK1 headers. I've installed the Capristo exhaust brackets recently and I am considering the Capristo headers. From what I've read, the Capristos are T309 Stainless which has a higher temperature resistance vs. the more commonly used T304 Stainless. I think the Capristo blankets are also a good idea. Along with the 4-2-1 design, I think this is the way to go.

    The foreign metallic objects traveled past your exhaust valves on its way to the cylinder, so hopefully, the valves didn't close on its seat on the metallic objects. Also since the headers are stainless, the loose stainless steel pieces/welds wouldn't be attracted to the magnet.

    This is getting me worried ... I need to just park my 430 until I get Capristo headers!

    And thanks F430GT ... I thought of doing the header install myself, but if you wouldn't do it again, I'll send mine out for the install!
     
  22. Moopz

    Moopz F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 29, 2004
    5,351
    Orlando, FL
    Unbelievable ... can't believe they failed literally minutes after we spoke about it. I hope you remember from that conversation that you wanted to install the Capristo headers anyway. My vote is to get the car back in your hands, install the Capristos, and get back on the road!

    Btw, I just had the Capristo exhaust brackets installed last week. :D
     
  23. Splitting Atoms

    Splitting Atoms Formula 3

    Sep 18, 2011
    1,557
    South Carolina
    Full Name:
    Eric
    Since you are going to look in the cylinders with a scope, I would look at the cylinder walls for evidence of scratches due to particles that may have gotten down between the piston and cylinder. If you see any, you may want to pull the piston and clean it. I know that would be a big job, but the particle(s) could end up making a deep scratch or damaging the piston ring.
     
  24. sparetireless

    sparetireless Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,538
    I suspect that your car has lost a portion of its CAT that is integral to the header.

    Apparently with time the CAT can loose a portion of its ceramic like constructiton and the particles are drawn into the combustion chamber due to a large cam timing overlap that gives the 430 its huge power.

    a scope should work nicely to see if the heads need to come off. (Arm chair quarterbacking is easy, you are on the front line.)

    I hope its minor.
     
  25. sparetireless

    sparetireless Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,538
    they will drive more heat into the heads which will yield more power and a shorter engine life due to the heat. The heat is a zero sum game,

    what is the driving factor forcing you to blankets, i would go for more air flow myself.
     

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