F40 v F50 prices

look, I buyed my f40 in european auction in 2010, 285.000 euros, I can be sold it in 2013 by 425.000 euros,I decided to keep my lovely car, the last auction in artcurial in paris, few weeks ago, 690.000 euros.
why?, 25 years celebrations, crisis in the bank,s, interesting by a italian cars, etc,etc.
I can read some times ago, from my european bank, a paper about the prices of the cars for the future, and the spectec price for f40 is 1.000.000 euros in few years...

 

Yes it's the same here. Comparable F40/F50s are within 10-20% of each other. The F40 just has that much more of an aura than the F50 and although the press has been very favorable to the F50 lately, it will take a loooooong time for it to catch up the F40's iconic status.

 

Not that I'm counting on it, but I think the bubble is sure to burst. Again.

Prices of 288s, F40s, F50s and Enzos are non-sensical.

Market prices, just like the stock market, are being propped up, IMO.

Maybe I'll be a buyer in the future, but not now...

CW

 

In Europe, the F50 has almost doubled in value in three years.

I'm struggling to understand why a 288GTO is twice the price of a comparable F40.

E

 

Rarity.

 

Its similar.

Bear in mind that the cars surge in value at different rates, its not a uniform ascendance. Some are more in demand than others for a period, and then they seem to fall out-of-favor for the moment and another model takes over. You have to be involved in the market or watching pretty closely to see this play out.

 

Anyone know about a Japanese based F40 that has come available for sale? Former Gerhard Berger F1 drivers car?

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

 

+1

I think the 288 is beautiful, but the aggressiveness of the F40 wins me over every time.

 

This has not aged well

 

Took 9 years. Is that a long time?

 

Have you got some examples to share? if you take a look at the RM auction in Miami, there seems to be a large delta between the F40 and F50 some 2 plus million dollars for such cars ?
Barkaways sold a 44 km 1 owner F40 a few months ago for just under 2 million USD so are you saying a F50 with such mileage can be bought for 2.3 USD,
The rarity of the F50, Enzo and 288 with always carry a significant premium over in comparison to the mass produced F40.
https://barkaways.com/sales/1991-ferrari-f40

 

That post was from nearly 11 years ago…

 

note the date of his post

 

Meh.

I still think valuations are VERY high. Higher now, even.

The fact that there are buyers at these prices is staggering to me. But, I certainly wish I had a few of them lying around. I first looked at 288s when they were in the $200Ks. I first looked at F40s when they were in the $400Ks (where they sat for a very long time, even as others started moving up). I first looked at 333SPs when they were in the $500Ks. Today's prices don't compute to me. I'm a former IBanker. I did valuations as a profession. Valuations of anything (equities, real estate, etc.) are, IMHO, very high. Some of this is certainly being driven by inflationary pressures (lots of money with few places to put it), but when we had the tech bubble burst, housing bubble burst and COVID "hiccups", valuations had an opportunity to re-set. They didn't. Not sure why, but I have a feeling that people don't want to sell at market prices. Rather, they feel they can set the price. And, they have their price and aren't willing to take anything less. No matter how outrageous it is. Following this theme, I think "green new deal" investing has already come off, but AI is still in a frenzy mode. Will it come back down to earth? Deepseek did no favors to NVDA investors this past week. But, it's now clawing back a bit.

Periodically, I get inquiries offering another BBLM. We sold ours. However, the number just doesn't make sense. So, the decision is whether to ante up or not just to have it. I'm currently in the market for an IMSA GTP/Group C car. Or, possibly a later model ALMS/ELMS LMP900/LMP1 or equivalent. Prices don't make sense to me, either. EUR pricing is just silly (take US pricing and add 50%), and, frankly, there's simply NO negotiation. Take it or leave it. I put a bid on a car in early 2024. I thought the seller and I had a deal. I didn't hear from him for a couple of days, but when I did, he had sold the car to someone else. I agreed to his asking price, btw. That said, the car turned up in the UK with a 40% premium asking price. Anyway, just another data point, but it puts me on notice that sellers may still have more power at the moment.

The other thing I see is that the same cars are on the market endlessly. They aren't selling at the asking prices. Said car is STILL available at the 40% premium. Along with many others I've been keeping an eye on for years. Their asking prices aren't coming down. And, most of these cars come with few to no spares, which, if you know anything about running race cars, you know that's your lifeblood. Who needs a $500K paperweight?

I may be wrong until I'm right, but we could easily still be in a valuation bubble. OTOH, when GTOs are in the $70MM+ price range, is there a limit? Difficult to predict future price trends.

CW

 

Thank you

 

The number of people who can afford these very limited goods has absolutely exploded in the last 25 years.

Couple that with the surge in EVs, the mandates to end ICE cars, plus the nostalgia factor and it all makes sense...

Cars used to have character.

Now, they are all grey, white, or black and send you texts.

See:

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I would also add that unlike banking valuations, there's fuzziness in the world where economics and passion are swirled together. Especially among this explosion of new money.

 

True, and I don't disagree with your points, but, when you're talking about someone buying a $5MM "toy", I'd say net worth has to be north of $25MM. If you were to use 20% of net worth as your limit. Everyone has their number, of course, and mine is certainly not a rule (someone suggested to me that you'd need a net worth of $10MM for a private jet and I laughed!). Call me fiscally conservative. And, there has indeed been a lot of wealth created in the past 25 years. Proportionately more than in the prior 25 years, though? Don't know, actually. Still, if the pool of people having $25MM has doubled (and, the pool of people with PLENTY more than that has also grown), there are only so many Ferraris, Monets or whatevers to buy. So, the pool has grown, but the assets to buy haven't. In this context, scarcity does have some intrinsic value.

Also, it may be the people are shifting (or have shifted) how they look at these types of acquisitions. For me, I want to drive and enjoy my Ferraris. But, driving and parking a $5MM car on the streets is a significant financial exposure. Many may now be treating these as investments. And, they're not necessarily wrong to do that, given the numbers we are talking about. It's one thing to buy a $200K street car. It's another to buy a $2, 5 or 10MM "toy".

And, consider what has happened to art prices. Even when you adjust for Damien Hirst "art". But, who am I to argue? All of this is subjective. And, when it's no longer a goal to be a millionaire (rather, today, the target is billionaire), valuation is irrelevant. Not only that, you have players in the game today who skew the market (Saudi Royals buying the purported last da Vinci, for example). Chinese buying wine futures. Sovereign wealth funds. And, so forth. Does a billionaire care about a $5MM purchase? It's interest for a couple of days.

Have I missed making money? Sure. No one is perfect. I have just been around long enough to see bubbles build and collapse, and the cycle repeat itself. I was pretty sure we were in one, but we got a soft landing recently. And, the political winds have now changed. So, I think we need to sit back and see where we're going, but I am almost 100% invested in equities, if that's any indication of economic confidence.

I also come back to the examples I cite of cars with high asking prices sitting for LONG periods. Typically, these dealers used to make their money on a transactional basis. But, are they so well-financed today, that they don't care about churn? They'd rather set the asking price and wait for a buyer to grow into it as opposed to negotiating reasonable prices today? Don't know. I could rattle off a half dozen european brokers that have had the same cars in inventory for, literally, years. Up to them how they conduct their affairs, but I'd think that if you want to move inventory, work with buyers and find a reasonable price. The whole "POA" things just favors them. I've also seen cars listed as available, then sold and then available again in a matter of weeks. Don't know if these are failed sales or just more optimistic new owners re-listing. Regardless, there is a limit to everything. As tastes change, the 1950s Ferraris become less "lustworthy", maybe, because the buyers are now younger. The cars of their youth aren't the same as those of their Fathers. Of course, if you are building a collection of important cars, there will always be the ones you need to complete it. And, there are other reasons to like older cars over more modern ones. But, speculation is always at work. For every deal there is a buyer AND a seller.

CW

 

Even IBanking valuation is not a science. It's an art. At least, that's what I was told so many years ago when I first arrived on Wall Street.

CW

 

I think the culture has changed quite a bit, 20 years ago (sickening to think) I used to see Enzo's/F50's etc on track days here in the UK and now they are nowhere to be seen

they were always collectors items but it's so rare to see people using them now and they are generally detailed to within an inch of their life which further discourages owners from driving