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F40 on Fire in Monaco

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by ChipG, Feb 18, 2020.

  1. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes, ZFFPA16B00058339, AC, PW, orange seat inserts, it was owned for a period by John Karr, Leawood, Kansas-registered '288 GTO', Marcel recently posted an image of it from the days when he owned it, it looked to be a really nice example.

    That's not one of the many I have sold so I have no interest in the manuals, that said if I had been involved in the deal I would have insisted the manuals come with the car.
     
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  2. ChipG

    ChipG Formula 3

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    He traded it even for an F40 back in the day, at the time both cars were worth the same amount, I told him not to do it :)
     
  3. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Historians and specialists exchange information all the time, as they should, often intentionally in order to corroborate it, I have found it very beneficial to work with Marcel, it's always a 2-way street, one person can't have all the correct information, so an exchange is prudent, it's good for the community and good for business, so we enjoy a good relationship, this is worth considering.

    It sounds like your issues with Marcel are personal, in fact I know they are, and that's not necessary.

    The people who pay him lots of money to provide accurate history on a car before they buy it have the option of corroborating the information he supplies with many other specialists and historians, that's worth considering also. There's also nothing to stop you e-mailing anybody you like, if they feel what you have to say has merit I'm sure they will listen, IMO that's more constructive than coming in a forum and making accusations supported by nothing at all. That said, there must be people who value your input perhaps more than that of any other party, there are always choices in the community or market.

    Lasty, I don't think any historian's reputation is tarnished by association with Marcel, if anything it's enhanced.
     
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  4. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I remember that now, in fact I think he offered the GTO to Rob Lay at the time of sale, we must be talking 12 years ago or something like that.
     
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  5. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Why would I e-mail anyone?!? The misinformation is posted here! So I address it here!

    This whole charade of whether or not I have issues with Marcel, and is this personal, and maybe I should e-mail someone - the fact is that misinformation is being propagated here.

    Should I privately e-mail Marcel, waiting for a reply I know will never come - or a reply I know will be irrelevant - when thousands of people are frequenting FerrariChat daily and absorbing this misinformation?

    You're not making any sense, Joe. If this was about a GTO, and not an Enzo, and you knew the car was a new one, and not one rebuilt from a wreckage, would you just sit by while inaccurate information is being laid into stone? I wanna say, "I don't think so!" but I honestly don't know if you'd speak up to Marcel (in this ridiculous, unspoken hierarchy of "historians" and "experts" and "specialists").

    And just so we're clear, Marcel is out for himself; if GTOs ever plummet in value, you'll never hear from him again. Marcel has zero interest in accurate Ferrari history, only what will pay him the most.

    This thread is proof of that fact!
     
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  6. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I understand what you are saying.

    I think the factory's parameters for what constitutes reconstruction can easily cause disagreement on this issue but perhaps your real issue is with Ferrari SpA.

    Marcel & I have corrected each other multiple times before in these threads in case you've missed it, but we can also work well together and that's what Im suggesting for you, we can agree to disagree sometimes and still have a good working basis.
     
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  7. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #107 134282, Mar 10, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
    I love your wording: "the factory's parameters for what constitutes reconstruction..." It's like right off some factory-issued media pamphlet; or something I'd here in a Law & Order episode.

    The car in question, s/n 135564, was not rebuilt. The 135564 that exists today is a brand new Enzo that was given the same VIN as the original 135564 that was split in two and destroyed on PCH, 21 February 2006, by Steffan 'Fat Steffy' Eriksson, who initially tried to blame it on a mysterious individual named Dieter who never actually existed. Those are the facts. We've all known that, for years.

    I love Ferrari. I love the cars, the history, the people, the coachbuilders, the races, the sounds (OMG, the sounds!), I love it all. And for some weird reason, I became bizarrely obsessed with this arcane, abstruse, recondite, anorakian hobby of keeping track of individual cars. And recording their histories. And one day making those histories as magical to recall as we adoringly reminisce about fake pictures of "100" 250 GTOs and Enzo giving one-way tickets to racers (because if they died, the round-trip cost would be wasted). But keeping it accurate. Always keeping it honest and up front and accurate. Disassembled Ferrari body parts buried in a yard. A buried Dino. Sandra West! Crazy, odd, ridiculous people and events and cars and moments. All captured and recorded in some way or another, and, for whatever reason, a lot of us enjoy reveling in those amazing stories. But what actually happened was always important - integral - to the story. Not what the factory decides to write (for whatever reason, I don't know). I've lovingly dedicated my life to manically keeping track of every Ferrari I could, full of passion, inspired by the likes of Gerald Roush and Dave Seibert and Marcel Massini and Hilary Raab and Lars Thunissen and Wayne Ausbrooks and Edvar van Daalen and Erik Reynolds, and fast-forward nearly two decades after I started, and you two historians are just blankly puppeting what the factory said about a car we know wasn't rebuilt. And I'm like ...what? Really? It's good to be in with them, so let's just mimic what they said? How do you call yourselves historians? How do you say this, and then turn around to your clients and charge hard-earned money for information you deem accurate? It just kinda takes the wind out of my sails. Like I followed in these footsteps of greatness, and I later find out it was all built on ...go with the flow? Wow. So that blows. It's ...disappointing. Poor Gerald is probably spinning with Lampredi-esque force.
     
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  8. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Just a point of clarification, speaking for myself, I don't charge anything for historical information, I simply act as a consultant on the buying and selling of Ferrari Supercars.

    Again, I do think the factory's parameters for what constitutes reconstruction means your real issue is with Ferrari SpA, I honestly really do not care if they classify it as a reconstruction, rebuild or remanufacture, or whatever (so far as I learn what their position is so were on the same page) and whether I question Ferrari SpA's policies or not makes not one iota of difference to the integrity of my business - consulting on the buying and selling of Ferrari Supercars.

    If one day one of the reconstructed, rebuilt or remanufactured cars crossed our paths, I'd have a discussion with my client and if they decided to pass in favor of something without that provenance, we'd all be fine with that.
     
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  9. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Certainly his right to do so but I find it a very unfortunate attitude for a former caretaker of an important car to take.
     
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  11. ChipG

    ChipG Formula 3

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    yes, very selfish
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Unless or until you have been a paying client of Marcels you have no way of knowing what information he provides his paying clients. I have been the victim of similar smears by onlookers who have never done business with me so have zero basis for criticism. What matters is my clients level of satisfaction, not the opinion of onlookers. As far as being in it for himself, I am a good capitalist and support the concept fully. The desire to succeed in business is a strong and honest driving force and what drives people and businesses to thrive and maintain good reputations and working relationships.
     
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  13. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I have no issues with business and capitalism. It's the lying with which I have an issue. And I've already said that, so now I'm just repeating myself. And I've worked with Marcel, I know how he operates, I'm not making anything up or casting aspersions. I'm speaking facts. And I've already laid out all of the relevant ones.
     
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Very poor form doing it in public.
     
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  15. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    thanks to all of you for ruining this thread with all your petty personal arguments and vendettas.

    take your bs issues to a separate thread. the rest of us dont give a **** about what you think of each other.
     
  16. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I just posted this last night https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/147085166/ the original books belong with the car.
     
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  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Agree 100% and agree with your position on holding up the deal until they are provided but I have seen buyers fold on that demand because they didn't care. What we see as important based on our experience cannot always be conferred upon others.
     
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  18. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    If you think about it, they are part of the car's identity, especially the warranty book, and they are irreplaceable, as the cars become more valuable it has become more important to try and keep them wth the car.
     
  19. ChipG

    ChipG Formula 3

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    Since this thread is so far off-topic...

    What are those books/manuals worth now the car's worth $3+ million? I think when he traded it for the F40 it was valued about 1/10 that amount
     
  20. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

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    In fairness that Enzo could quite easily be rebuilt to fall in line with the UK registration regulations I highlighted, there are some significant components that could be salvaged, refurbished and fitted into a new replacement chassis. It would be very hard to prove many of the items in the current iteration of the car did not come from that wreck.

    The example I mentioned that even had its VIN plate replicated, was totally burned to the ground, nothing at all from it could have been salvaged, yet it is now back on the road after Ferrari sprinkled its magic dust over the carcass, as if the event never happened.
     
  21. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    What do you expect from an F40 fire thread? ;)

    Seriously, I have no idea what they are worth, IMO they should be worth nothing to anyone except the person who owns 58339.
     
  22. ChipG

    ChipG Formula 3

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    Let me rephrase, how much value would it add to the GTO if the owner had the original book and manuals?
     
  23. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Where should I do it, Brian? In private, where no one can see it? Should I privately send a private message to everyone who replies to this thread, or even views it, and say, "Hey, listen, that information posted about that Enzo is incorrect, it's actually a brand new Enzo that was given the same exact VIN from a car that was totaled."

    The fact that everyone is going on about my tactics and aplomb, and ignoring the facts about that Enzo, tells me one thing: The active participants of this thread, and likely most on this entire forum, are more concerned with perception than truth. And I gotta say, Brian, I never thought you'd be on that list. But it appears that you are; and that makes this a sad day.

    All of the arguing, all of the niggling over how to actually define the word 'rebuilt', all of the comparisons to other countries where this might be acceptable - none of it is relevant! The Enzo in question, 135564, was not rebuilt; it's a brand new Enzo given the same VIN as the original, which was completely destroyed on PCH.

    I've said that now, what, three times? I just keep repeating myself because people keep joining in to tell me my methods are perceived as ...what, sour? Too real for this phony boys club? I get it. You all have bills to pay and mouths to feed. Can't be seen going against the Factory or Massini grain.

    So tell me this, Brian, and whoever else: if I agree that my methods in this thread are, whatever you wanna call it, not conducive to, what, lively conversation? Progression of some sort? Whatever. Will you all agree that the Enzo in question, 135564, is in fact a brand new Enzo wearing the VIN of the original 135564 that was destroyed on PCH, 21 February 2006, and was never actually rebuilt? Yes? Okay! Here we go...

    I have a tendency to act like a childish baby who thinks that arguing and cursing is merely lively debate, and I don't actually know how to properly and effectively communicate when I'm emotionally invested in the subject matter.

    Okay, now you go...
     

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