F12 TDF current market pricing and volume | Page 7 | FerrariChat

F12 TDF current market pricing and volume

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by gzachary, May 12, 2020.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. LMH

    LMH Karting

    May 5, 2019
    195
    Spain
  2. 4_Eff_Sake

    4_Eff_Sake Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2016
    761
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Scott
    LARRYH, LMH and uhn2000 like this.
  3. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
    1,160
    Europe
    Full Name:
    Barry K


    Yesterday it was Barry doesn't like fighter jets, today it's Barry, Greta and V12 extinction. Some members here are in danger of becoming extinct due to their sheer irrelevance long before our V12s. :D

    Back to the thread:

    The Tom Hartley Jr car was last advertised at £645k with 900 miles. A LHD 10k mile car at the Hanover dealer (Moll) is under offer for 660k euros, I understood. So assuming the UK car sold for around £600k+, almost the same price as a LHD car with 10k miles. It looks like the RHD or UK market is quite weak compared to even 2 years ago when RHD cars traded at a 10%+ premium to euro cars.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. ewright

    ewright Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 17, 2003
    598
    549 miles.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Dubaicity

    Dubaicity Karting

    Nov 21, 2013
    130
    Germany
    TDF at Moll Hanover is priced 740k euros...
     
    of2worlds likes this.
  6. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
    1,160
    Europe
    Full Name:
    Barry K
    Yes, that is the asking price, and as they are the official Ferrari dealer, they are usually high. The transaction price is quite a bit lower. Tom Hartley Jr on the other hand prices them more aggressively to sell, so the transaction price is closer to asking.

    Transaction prices for Euro tdfs with even lower miles (but not delivery miles) have been below 700k euros for a year or more now.
     
    ppg70 and Dubaicity like this.
  7. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Silver Subscribed

    Jan 10, 2011
    608
    California
    Does anyone here know how many TdFs there are in the major markets? (US, UK, Italy, Germany, France, rest of the EU, China, Japan)
     
  8. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
    1,160
    Europe
    Full Name:
    Barry K
    For the UK there is a website which shows current registrations:
    https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=ferrari+f12tdf&commit=Search

    which currently shows 55 in that country. In Germany, I remember a dealer once saying there were approximately 50 cars delivered, but I have not seen proper confirmation and it doesn't account for cars imported or exported since. I think there is a user @MDEL who has posted on Ferrari delivery by region, and he will probably have better information.
     
  9. willcrook

    willcrook Formula 3

    Feb 3, 2009
    2,128
    UK
    a question I've always wondered is how an F12 with a mild tune/louder exhaust and all stability systems removed be percieved

    the normal F12 feels extremely powerful/bordering on overpowered to me and I think simply the removal of assistance would give it that raw and dangerous feel that draws people towards the f12
     
  10. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2016
    3,557
    Southern Europe
    Full Name:
    Mario
    I wish I could help at least with the information on the number of new TDFs that were sold in Europe. Unfortunately carsales base which is my usual source has sales numbers for many Ferrari models, including the La Ferrari, but hasn't any for the TDF. Therefore remains a mystery the geographical distribution of the 799 TDFs made.
    Right now on Mobile.de there are 14 for sale and on Autotrader.uk 3 of them. Based on the world sales distribution of other Ferrari models my guess is that the majority of TDFs, around 80%, are located in Europe and in the US.
     
    gzachary likes this.
  11. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Silver Subscribed

    Jan 10, 2011
    608
    California
    Thank you.

    I was told approximately 125-250 in the US. One person told me 125-150. The other person told me 250. So those are hearsay data points.

    On a base of 799, 250 for the US seems to make more sense than 125. At least to me. And splitting the 80% in half, would suggest 320.
     
  12. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
    1,160
    Europe
    Full Name:
    Barry K
    While I have not driven the F12, the virtual short wheel base is the big change with the tdf, and is also on the 812. So may be the 812 is a better place to make that comparison from. From my driving the 812, the car is still reasonably well behaved after turning off the electronics. For me this is progress compared to the more unpredictable behaviour of the F12tdf.

    But the tdf fan club here will tell you that it is raw and visceral etc vs F12/812, but then it is a car that seems to need the
    nannies, even according to Ferrari. Like a pitbull with a nose muzzle.

    For example:
     
  13. Red Sled

    Red Sled Formula Junior

    Since this is a thread about values, this post is off-topic for which I apologise in advance. However, following on from some of the comments above regarding the tdf’s handling together with gzachary’s excellent post, some personal observations may be useful to add to the mix.

    Firstly, I will assume that the opinion above regarding handling issues have been posted in good faith; otherwise the rest of this post would be wasted keystrokes.

    I have accrued around 4000km on the tdf since purchase around 18 months ago, split between track and mountains, often with a driving group that consists of committed enthusiasts and some professional/ProAm drivers.

    Having read here and in the "F12tdf driving dynamics" thread referred above that the car is unpredictable/dangerous/bucking bronco/muzzled pitbull etc, I thought it may be useful to think about what a well-handling car might be. For me the characteristics of a car that provide the very best driving experiences are:
    1) Presents a challenge
    2) Is enjoyable
    3) Provides an opportunity to learn and hone driving skills
    Implicit in the above are that the car is not dangerous since such a car is rarely enjoyable – my Ariel Atom does 1) and 3) very well, but I never feel completely safe. The 1978 911 Turbo which I briefly owned was a monstrously fun challenge, but its manners were too untidy to add to my driving skills - a real bucking bronco to repeat the term. Then, there are a multitude of enjoyable and well-mannered cars today which present no particular challenge to the driver. For a racing car, I understand that one typically wants the fastest and easiest to drive car. But for a road car, the focus is the driving experience.

    The very best driver’s cars provide each of these qualities in spades, which in my stable are: F50, Carrera GT and, lately, the Senna. Each is a precision driving tool, with the connection between the driver and car exceptionally direct.

    So where does the tdf fit in? To me, it provides a driving experience like no other modern Ferrari. In our first track outing at Varano in Italy (which may be familiar to some members who have done Ferrari driving courses), it was a shock. While the previous 500+ miles were mostly on mountain roads where the car was lively, direct and hugely powerful, on track with the traction control switched off, threading the car through the compound-S’s (from T9 to pit straight for those who are familiar) resulted in frequent oversteer spins, even for the Ferrari driving instructor and the Blancpain Endurance ProAm racer in our group. While some in our group shied away from the tdf, after 20 laps and a near-vertical learning curve, getting those curves consistently right was one of the most memorable and satisfying drives of my life. Many miles and track sessions later I am just a fraction of the way into understanding this wonderfully multifaceted machine. The tdf is set up like no other I have driven, and requires a fundamentally fresh approach to exploiting its potential. As a simple example, the turn-in is so sharp for a front-engined car that it is easy to let the rear float into corners which for me is often the start of a spin-out. Learning to finish up braking work a fraction earlier, and allow the weight transfer to load up the outer rear wheel in particular which then allows one to precisely and delicately guide the car on a knife edge through the curve. The wide-front tyre / rear-steer set up does require substantial mental adjustment, especially if, like me, one is mentally wired for mid-engined cars.

    With regard to driver aids, I have always been a huge fan of simple analogue set ups like the F50 and CGT. The arrival of the Senna has been eye opening in demonstrating how electronics are becoming more sophisticated yet can remain unobtrusive. There are certainly moments when you can feel the electronics working to keep the tdf in check, but it is never enough to detract from the overall directness of the driving experience.

    For me, the key to unlocking this car is time. And the lack thereof is, in my opinion, the main reason for some of the negative comments here and occasionally in the motoring press. There are now so many highly competent, hugely powerful cars that feel quite comfortable to drive at 9/10ths and beyond on first acquaintance, that the tdf appears to be at fault for requiring more commitment. The 812 is such a car, sharing some of the technology with the tdf, and is a magnificent driving machine in its own right. On a twisty mountain road, with CT-Off, I am as fast if not faster in my 812 vs the tdf. Yet the tdf provides the more memorable and immersive drive, having pushed my game higher at every turn.

    Unfortunately, journalists or the occasional driver doesn’t typically have the time to make commitments to an extended period of learning. I do not intend to patronise the driving abilities of those here with 20,000km in an F40 (I am only about half way there!), but just wanted to illustrate my own experience.

    I appreciate that the car might not be to everyone’s taste (I doubt any car ever is) but at least my motoring life tastes immeasurably sweeter with the tdf than without.

    Again, apologies for the off-topic post.
     
    -K1-, LVP488, johnr265 and 15 others like this.
  14. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
    1,160
    Europe
    Full Name:
    Barry K
    Interesting post. So you would put the tdf below F50, Porsche Carrera GT and McLaren Senna?
     
  15. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Thank you for that exceptional review!

    It almost sounds like the tdF's weight balance (claimed 46/54) makes it behave more like rear-engine 911 (tail happy/easy to provoke oversteer), add the rear steering component and you have a new experience!

    And, the 812 with its slightly better weight balance (47/53) and version 2 rear steer and it becomes, as I have noticed, predictable (at first acquaintance) and confidence inspiring even with ESC off.
     
    of2worlds likes this.
  16. Red Sled

    Red Sled Formula Junior

    #166 Red Sled, Jun 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
    Comparing the of mid-engined vs front-engined cars is akin comparing freestyle vs butterfly times in swimming. They are different applications within the same field, making a comparison not very useful.

    What I would say is that the tdf is the best modern front engined car I have ever driven, by a long way.

    With the changes in technology and regulations, I suspect that it may remain so for a very long time.
     
  17. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 31, 2001
    3,493
    Full Name:
    Cavallo
    I was referring to ADAS in the referenced quote. F12tdf does not have ADAS, unlike later model 812's, for example.
     
  18. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 31, 2001
    3,493
    Full Name:
    Cavallo
    The only "predictable behaviour" is your incessant whining about the way F12tdf handles. Which is hilarious, because you clearly have never even driven one. Besides, do you think anyone really cares about your (unfounded) opinion? (hint: no)
     
    500drvr, 4_Eff_Sake and Roland1688 like this.
  19. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 31, 2001
    3,493
    Full Name:
    Cavallo
    Having a hard time doing that, aren't ya....
     
    4_Eff_Sake likes this.
  20. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 31, 2001
    3,493
    Full Name:
    Cavallo
    The only thing needing a muzzle here is you, because you find it impossible to keep on point with the title of this thread.
     
    4_Eff_Sake likes this.
  21. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 31, 2001
    3,493
    Full Name:
    Cavallo
    MODERATOR: Since BarryK finds it impossible see this thread without wetting her panties and continually going off topic, could you please implement a remedy?
     
    4_Eff_Sake likes this.
  22. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 11, 2013
    10,858
    Thank you for the excellent, detailed, and very informative feedback!
     
    4_Eff_Sake likes this.
  23. BJK

    BJK F1 Rookie

    Jul 18, 2014
    4,781
    CT
    use the 'Report' button if you want to communicate with a moderator. ;)
     
    Boomhauer likes this.
  24. 4_Eff_Sake

    4_Eff_Sake Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2016
    761
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Scott
    Excellent firsthand review from someone with the experience to be believed. Thanks

    You’re like an inexperienced poker player that just doesn’t know when to fold even though you’re clearly beaten


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  25. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
    1,160
    Europe
    Full Name:
    Barry K

    Thank your for the two clear and interesting posts.


    I am very happy to happy to listen and learn from those who have something useful to say, but you both obviously have nothing of substance to contribute.
     

Share This Page