F12 TDF current market pricing and volume | Page 6 | FerrariChat

F12 TDF current market pricing and volume

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by gzachary, May 12, 2020.

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  1. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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    Perhaps not coincidentally, a number of tdf owners also have F40's.
     
  2. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    Jun 11, 2013
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    Stunning car Neil! We can only speculate about the 812 version for now. Let's see what they do, it would surely be interesting. I hope the car has a real edge to it.
     
  3. BJK

    BJK F1 Rookie

    Jul 18, 2014
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  4. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
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    I agree with you that a raw car is refreshing in today's driver-aid filled machines. Back in the early 90s I drove 20,000 km in my F40 on roads and track which now feels a very different type of car to the modern Ferraris. But while my reflexes have slowed with age I still like driving in the proper fashion. The question of the tdf handling has been discussed before, and since this is a thread about values, I will just make reference to it, and summarize my position: Having driven the car now several times on good driving roads where the handling can be examined, the main point is that it has over sensitive nose that easily snaps into oversteering in many cases with no warning or irresponsible provocation of the throttle. And it is not possible to rectify it even with good steering and throttle, which in my opinion is not a good characteristic for a road car, and made more difficult by the super-quick steering without any feel. The traction is quite good even if some members here talk about lighting up the wheels in high gears which I never tried as it is not my car or my tyres. I go with a friend in his tdf and my 812 along some good Black Forest roads for 60-70km each way, and we swap cars. I find the 812 is obviously much less drama, but actually faster and importantly safer to drive properly than the tdf. To be clear, there is much to like about the tdf, like the style and the engine, but handling is definitely is not one of them. I think it has been said by some knowledgeable members here before that the tdf is designed to be driven with the nannies on.

    I am not the only one who has observed this. From the F12tdf driving dynamics thread from a while ago here is a comment from an owner, who incidentally was replying to you Jacques:
    I think the comparison with F40 makes sense from the point of view of rawness, but the handling not. The F40 is extremely linear in its handling, once its traction is understood with the turbo. Obviously we talk about dry conditions.

    By the way, I remember seeing your amazing 288GTO at the 70th event at Fiorano. To me those cars, even though much less power, still represent the height of driving where the driver is in charge.

    Back to the subject of the thread, my point simply was that Ferrari will very likely release an 812VS that will have improved handling (based on what we see in the 812) and performance, and its pricing will have an impact on tdf prices.
     
  5. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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    All very entertaining noise, Barry. But clearly you've never driven an F12tdf, else you'd be in possession of FACTS rather than FICTION regarding said drive dynamic. To prove otherwise, perhaps you'd be so kind as to post a photo of the exact F12tdf (owned by your imaginary "friend") that you claim to have driven?

    Now, to the FACTS. As reported in Issue 31, December 2015, "THE OFFICIAL FERRARI MAGAZINE," pages 112-119:

    Supermanoeuvrability. It's a word from the world of aviation, and describes the ability of certain aircrafts, like the Eurofighter Typhon, the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor an the Sukhoi Su-35, to perform starting manoeuvres that would be impossible for any conventional plane. Such feats are enabled thanks to highly advanced electronic systems, stretching the flying abilities of these fighters far beyond the aerodynamic limits of ordinary aircraft to perform some astonishing feats of agility.

    And it's this kind of jet-fighter thinking that has part-inspired Ferraris new F12tdf, the Company's latest (and technically magnificent) limited edition supercar. The F12tdf's terra firma-based interpretation of supermanoeuvrability is further intensified by extensive aerodynamic modifications and an increase in power. These elements are the essence of Ferrari's DNA. As is styling, of course. The F12tdf is an exquisite blend of sensuous forms and function intrigue.

    The quest to heighten the car's dynamicism has seen 110kg shorn from its kerb weight, achieved through the aerodynamic resculptinng of its bodywork and liberal deployment of carbon fibre. The same materials is used for the interior's door casings, instrument housing and satellite pods, further visual confirmation of the thoroughness with which the F12tdf has been reconfigured in a high technological quest for speed.

    Increasing the width of the front wheels and tyres might seem a rather tame place to begin the creation of a car that shares the super-agility of a fighter plane. However, widening the F12's front rubber from 255mm to 275mm is fundamental to its transformation to F12tdf; the extra grip it generates delivering a challenging shift in the car's dynamic character.


    Matteo Lanzavecchia, Head of Vehicle Testing, explains: "The goal was to gain more grip to improve lap times, and the only way to do it was to increase the grip of the front axle." The result, he explains, "was to produce less mechanical understeer, because 15 per cent more lateral acceleration is possible from the front." That sounds simple enough, except that increasing the road-holding of the front wheels has such an effect that, "we originally didn't have the capability to manage the increased grip of the front axle."

    That capability has come with the development of Ferrari's own four-wheels steering system. Dubbed "Virtual Short Wheelbase," this highly advanced mix of wheel steering hardware and deeply integrated software has the effect of shortening the F12's wheelbase to give it the agile, darting turn-in of a racing car, but with manners and controllability that on't require a skilled professional to get the best from it.


    The F12tdf is not the only high-performance car to use four-wheel steering technology. However, as Lanzavecchia explains, "it's done in a different way," to take advantage of the car's ideal weight distribution and perfect handling balance that it provides. Such features are not always present in every car flaunting four wheels that steer. Rather than switching between counter-steering under some circumstances and swiveling them in-phase during others (as with other four-wheel steerers), the F12tdf's rear axle is always directed in-phase with the front wheels.

    "If we use four-wheel steering in-phase, we can then make the growth of lateral acceleration occur straight away," Lanzavecchia says. In other words, the car is more responsive, its cornering power flowering immediately. "With four-wheel steering we gain agility, lateral acceleration and stability when the rear wheels steer in-phase."

    Which sounds almost as conceptually straight-forward as those fatter front tyres except that, "there are two challenges. Because we have the e-differential, electronic stability control, electronic magnetorheological dampers, traction control and anti-lock brakes, the bi thing is to have one brain to control all this and to know what we want to achieve," explains Lanzavecchia. "It took a lot of work to integrate this. It was a big step - we did it in-house and used a simulator."


    The second challenge, he says, "is the process of development. In the early age of electronics, we used to o the mechanical development first and then witch on the electronics to gain safety. Later on we did it in parallel to gain performance. But now, because we push the performance so much, we've made the vehicle more difficult to drive, we use a control system to tame it."

    That has meant using unconventional methods to refine and test it, too. "We don't develop the car with a test driver at first, but instead use a simulator to reach a good base of electronic controls before starting the development on the road. The car is not unstable, but it's very tricky to drive and control electronically."


    It's this idea of taming a highly agile but demanding machine with electronics that has been borrowed from aeronautical engineering. The F12tdf's cornering power is also improved by the substantially altered aeroynamics, the air attached by a front bumper whoes splitter, drive plans, floor wing and air intakes channel air under, around, and over the car, besides cooling it.

    The F12tdf's aerobridge has been modified to allow air to swoop more cleanly along its flanks towards an extended boot spoiler, the wheel housings' air extractors also smoothing its passage. The rake of the back window has been altered to the same end and, from the rear, you'll see striking evidence of Maranello's aerodynamic efforts in the form of a deep-channeled rear splitter. Its active flaps can generate 230kg of downforce at 200 km'h, 30 per cent more than the standard F12.


    Having invested all this effort into the F12tdf's cornering, weight, and aerodynamics, it would be a surprise if Ferrari hadn't taken a look at the F12's engine. Sure enough, the V12 now produces 780 hp rather than 740 hp and 705 Nm instead of 690 Nm, 80 per cent of this torque available at 2,500 rpm before the shrieking 6,750 peak. The F12tdf can vault to 100 km/h in just 2.9 seconds, and 200 km/h in a no less sensation 7.9 seconds. And it only needs 121 metres to stop from this speed. Combine these capabilities with its extraordinary cornering powers, and the new car can lap Fiorano in a blazing one minute and 21 seconds.

    The supermanoeuvrability concept certainly works, then. "We originally used the idea with the 599XX," says Lanzavecchia, "but could only use it a bit because we didn't have four-wheel steering." This time, the latest technology and development techniques have allowed a fuller realization of a concept drawn from the skies, and one that only 799 lucky owners will be able to experience.


    As Mr. Matteo Lanzavecchia is quoted extensively in this article, let's have a look at his credentials:

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/matteo-lanzavecchia-18b6371a/?originalSubdomain=it

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Matteo Lanzavecchia
    Vehicle Office Director at Ferrari
    Modena Area, Italy

    EDUCATION
    Stanford Graduate School of Business Executive Education
    Innovation - Design Thinking Boot Camp · (2014 - 2022)
    Northwestern University - Kellogg School of Management
    Creating and Leading a Culture of Innovation · (2015 - 2015)
    ALMA Graduate School - Università di Bologna
    Executive Master in Technology and Innovation Management · (2009 - 2010)
    MIP-Politecnico Di Milano
    Ferrari Corporate Master · (2006 - 2007)
    Politecnico di Milano
    Mechanical Engineer, Land Vehicles · (1990 - 1997)

    EXPERIENCE
    Ferrari
    17 years 3 months

    Vehicle Office Director
    September 2015 - Present (4 years 10 months)
    Maranello - MO - Italy
    From September 2015 I am leading the Vehicle Office with the following Areas
    of Responsibility:
    ° Vehicle Components Engineering (Body in White; Chassis; Interior & Exterior
    Trims; Electrical & Electronic Systems)
    ° Vehicle Performance (Vehicle Dynamics & Control Systems; NVH & Sound
    Quality; Aerodynamics & Thermal Management)
    ° Vehicle Testing & Development (Functionality & Durability)
    ° Vehicle Innovation
    ° Vehicle Homologation

    Head of Vehicle Office
    September 2014 - August 2015 (1 year)
    Maranello - MO - Italy
    Areas of Responsibility:
    ° Vehicle Performance (Vehicle Dynamics & Control Systems; NVH & Sound
    Quality; Aerodynamics & Thermal Management)
    ° Vehicle Testing & Development (Functionality & Durability)
    ° Vehicle Innovation
    ° Vehicle Homologation
    Main Projects:
    - 2015: 488GTB

    Head of Vehicle Testing & Development / Vehicle Performance
    September 2009 - August 2014 (5 years)
    Maranello - MO - Italy
    In September 2009 I was appointed Head of Vehicle Testing & Development
    Dept. (including Vehicle Performance), that meant to lead the following areas:
    Page 1 of 3
    ° Vehicle Testing & Development (Vehicle Development Engineers, Vehicle
    Test Drivers, Vehicle Durability, Workshop & Test Bench)
    ° Vehicle Performance (Vehicle Dynamics & Control Systems, NVH & Sound
    Quality)
    Main Projects:
    - 2010: 599GTO, 599XXEVO
    - 2011: FF (with the Innovative "4RM": Ferrari 4 Wheel Drive System)
    - 2012: F12
    - 2013: 458Speciale, LaFerrari (First Ferrari Hybrid Vehicle)
    - 2014: CaliforniaT

    Vehicle Dynamics & Control Systems Manager / Road Testing Manager
    January 2008 - August 2009 (1 year 8 months)
    Maranello - MO - Italy
    In January 2008, in addition to Vehicle Dynamics & Control System Manager
    (in charge since 2006, see below), I was appointed Road Testing Manager,
    that meant to lead also the group of people involved directly in the Road
    Testing & Development of every new model (Vehicle Development Engineers).
    Main Projects:
    - 2008: California
    - 2009: 458 Italia

    Vehicle Dynamics & Control Systems Manager
    May 2006 - December 2007 (1 year 8 months)
    Maranello - MO - Italy
    Main Responsibilities:
    ° Vehicle Dynamics Target Setting, Deployment & Achievement of the Ferrari
    Range of Vehicles (8 Cylinders, 12 Cylinders and Special Series)
    ° Vehicle Dynamics Control Systems Development: Active Damping, Traction
    Control & Stability, E-Differential)
    ° Vehicle Dynamics Methodologies: Simulation, Testing & Bench
    Main Projects:
    ° Vehicle Dynamics Performance Definition of the 2008-2012 Product Range:
    California / 458 Italia / FF / F12
    ° Team Leader New Suspensions: Double Wishbone (Front) & Multilink (Rear)
    ° Team Leader New Control Systems (in collaboration with F1 Dept.):
    - F1Trac (Traction Control): first application on 599GTB (2006)
    - F1Trac & E-diff Integration: first application on 430Scuderia (2007)

    Vehicle Development Engineer - F430 / F430 Spider
    April 2003 - April 2006 (3 years 1 month)
    Maranello - MO - ITALY
    - Vehicle Performance Integration & Development
    - Vehicle Final Release
    - Vehicle Technical Reference
    Multimatic
    Vehicle Dynamics Engineer
    April 2000 - March 2003 (3 years)
    Gaydon - UK / Chicago - USA
    Main Project (on site):
    - Vehicle Dynamics Engineer at Aston Martin Lagonda: DB9 and V8 Vantage
    - Support Vehicle Dynamics Office at Newman-Haas Racing (US Cart Team)

    Alfa Romeo
    2 years 6 months
    Vehicle Dynamics Engineer
    April 1999 - March 2000 (1 year)
    Arese - MI - Italy
    Vehicle Dynamics Simulation Stager
    October 1997 - March 1999 (1 year 6 months)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    So, who are you going to believe regarding the F12tdf's ACTUAL drive dynamic:

    a) Random internet troll w/alias "Barryk" who claims to have driven "a friend's" F12tdf on various occasions.

    b) A Mechanical Engineer trained at Politecnico di Milano, with continuing education at Stanford Graduate School of Business, Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management, and over 17 years experience at Ferrari.

    c) NUMEROUS owners of F12tdf's who have driven thousands of miles both on tracks and public roads.

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  6. nads

    nads Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2008
    875
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    Well let's see, written by a senior Ferrari Engineer, and in the Official Ferrari magazine.....it must be true! :D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes:



    p.s. I love the TDF :cool:
     
  7. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

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    #132 BarryK, Jun 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
    I too have have a subscription to The Official Ferrari Magazine, but quoting from it is like asking Ferrari if their cars are any good, or asking the Pope if he is Catholic.

    In any case, there is plenty of opinion both positive and negative out there.
     
  8. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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    #133 Eilig, Jun 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
    ... and you've made yours repeatedly and abundantly clear, unfounded as it may be. If you can't say something nice...
     
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  9. 4_Eff_Sake

    4_Eff_Sake Formula Junior

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    No... there is plenty of opinion that is positive. There is a tiny amount that is negative in comparison
     
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  10. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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    Agree. Most negative is from people who (a) don't know how to drive, and/or (b) turn off nannies w/expectation of using it as a drift car. Note: F12tdf is not a drift car, it has too much grip to be used as such.
     
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  11. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
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    Tropical
    But now, because we push the performance so much, we've made the vehicle more difficult to drive, we use a control system to tame it."

    From the man with the big C.V ...looks like it is rather tricky without the nannies?

    Respect to the guy who did 20k KM on road and track in his F40 ...epic!
     
  12. Roland1688

    Roland1688 Karting

    Nov 2, 2014
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    BarryK,

    I have to say you know nothing about TDF as I really doubt you have tested drive it, not to mention that don’t own TDF so that you can not provide exact driving experience of TDF.

    Since you avoid answering the question about you opinion the problematic handling of TDF. I suggest you stop talking about TDF in this thread until you can elaborate the exact handling issue of TDF.
     
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  13. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    Jan 10, 2011
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    Hello TdF lovers who have responded to my initial post that started this thread. Thank you.

    Other than the the picture posted earlier (the triplo giallo strato) of my car, I haven't taken any. My wife takes great pictures. I still take pictures with my fingers somewhere in the frame :) LOL.

    To get a sense of the car, I am posting the personalization plate. Hopefully, this will fill in for the time being. Below that, I will have a post on my 2,100 miles in my 812 vs the current 65 miles I have put on the TdF so far.

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  14. 4_Eff_Sake

    4_Eff_Sake Formula Junior

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    So what?

    I imagine the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and the Sukhoi Su-35 are pretty tricky without the nannies too.

    And if you don’t respect them, they kill you too. But Barryk would label them a failure with problematic handling. He’s probably done a few test drives in them too
     
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  15. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    #140 gzachary, Jun 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
    Alright, now that I have the description of the car out of the way, I would like to let you know what my personal experience of driving both the 812 and the TdF. These are my personal experiences and may or may not relate to others. Just doing my best to communicate here.

    In terms of experience, I have driven my Pista and 812 a similar amount of miles (approximateley 2K miles). All of them on the road. I do have track time in both the 812 and Pista. Pista was great on the track and very easy to drive on the track.. 812 required adjustment as it was the first front-mid engine that I have driven on a track. The track experience with the 812 was incredibly helpful in learning the limits of the car. I also drive a Ferrari Challenge Evo on track and have 4K miles on that car.

    Over the last few weeks, I would take the 812 and the TdF out during the same day as well as on alternating days. Pinch myself to make sure I am awake and not dreaming.

    I will start the comparison from the moment upon looking at cars. These are the thoughts that went through my mind. These are not absolute statements. Just experience that I had.

    1) Design: 812 - I look at the car and really like the design, the power it implies, the color I picked, excited to get in it. TdF - BOOM! Iconic design for me. I can't wait to get in the car. I instantly forget about getting in the 812 and decide to take the TdF first. Just on the design alone and the power, aggression, seemless flow of it. Not even a choice; tractor beam pulling me into that TdF seat.

    2) Stepping in: TdF - Feels like the 812 when I get in. With some F12 mixed in. Love that I have to use an old style key to start the car. Which is not true in the 812. 812 - Wow, that is really sumptuous. This feels like a comfortable and great environment. Ferrari makes incredible cars.

    3) Ignition on: TdF - OMG. That sound. I can never go back from that sound. My fantasy from being a 5 year old kid and hearing an F1 car for the 1st time. I have not heard that sound in a road car in so long. Should I push the throttle to 8900rpm right now? no no no no. Not a good idea. 812 - Sounds great. But a bit insulated in the car. Does it get louder?

    4) Lets Start Driving in Sport Mode: TdF - Feels the same as the 812. But this car wants to go. Just feels like the throttle response is way stronger than the 812. 812 - Ferrari is building fantastic cars. This is an incredibly well manufactured, plush GT car with a monster engine. Likes the throttle. But not the nuclear explosion response of the TdF.

    5) Let's go to Race Mode and go to the Highway and then to Hills: TdF - Push the throttle linearly to the floor on the highway. The response is an engine that just wants to eat every drop of fuel and feels like a crazy dragon. That I am now sitting on top of. What did I buy. I am laughing. And a bit scared. And very happy. While the sound is roaring so loud it might be shaking other car's doors off. So much power. Can easily overpower any lack of attention in terms of traction. 812 - Wow, this car moves like crazy. Huge throttle response. Feels stuck to the road. Great traction. But feel pretty safe.

    6) Ability and attention needed to drive: Both cars: TdF - wouldn't let any friend drive it who was not either a professional or trained or highly capable driver take this car on the highway or hills. 812 - probably on the highway. Not hills. Hills felt more discomforting for the 812 for me...more kinetic mass in the corners. The TdF..needs more attention in the hills. But it is incredibly agile. Just feels much lighter to move around than the 812. But I notice that all neurons in my brain are focused on driving (perhaps they turned down functioning on non-imporant bodily functions then).

    TdF suspension - great. 812 suspension - great. They both felt almost exactly the same to me. In the TdF, the 4 wheel steering to me feels less obvious to me in the 812. I preferred that in the 812. Braking = too much going through my brain in the hills to remember for both.

    Shifting: TdF - Well integrated and smooth. But at the limit, it felt like a single clutch hit me in the back. Wasn't used to this. 812 - super smooth and incredible. Loved both. Each suited the character of both.

    Bottom line on Race Mode for Highway and Hills: TdF is just amazingly exciting and the performance is incredible. I will admit the performance requires more attention to put down than the 812. BUT it way more fun in the hills than the 812.

    Race Mode Handling: TdF seemed pretty similar to the 812. Nothing dramatically off. But, I did notice tail happiness with strong power-ons to the throttle. Nothing uncontrollable in race mode. But I did feel the wildness in the car here. I liked it. It was controllable. Just had to remind myself for smooth throttle application in the hills. More agile and lightweight feeling than the 812. I really liked that. 812 - a lot of kinetic mass. Better pay attention here too. You can get yourself in trouble with the 812. Just in a different way. With the 812, it felt like understeer but it was really some roll. So trade off on the handling. Just different.

    ESC or CT Off Handling: Didn't go there. Don't think I will go there. :) LOL. On a track yes. On the road, no.

    Where I came out:
    TdF = Fire breathing dragon that deserves respect. The most exciting car I have ever driven. I will always remember that very first drive. Spine tingling. The design, sound, performance....this car is iconic.

    812 = What an incredible car that Ferrari has built. Incredible performance with comfort. Ferrari is at the top of their game with manufacturing and performance. They have built a car that can span a wider group of drivers.

    Thanks for reading!
     
  16. 4_Eff_Sake

    4_Eff_Sake Formula Junior

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    Great comparison write up. I think you’ve captured the experience perfectly! Thanks for sharing
     
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  17. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

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    @4_Eff_Sake, you could not be more wrong. These fighter jets are designed with the sole purpose of supremacy over the skies they are in, and packed with technology to achieve it. Unlike a Ferrari which is built with the driver at its centre, these planes are not playthings for pilots to go and have fun in, or fly around by the seat of their pants. The pilots are just a functional component. If these planes would perform better with the pilot placed on the ground or replaced by a computer, then that's how they will be in the future. The fact that they are designed to have relaxed static stability making them highly maneuverable but unflyable by a human without computer help is irrelevant. It makes them better fighter jets.

    When you drive a Ferrari, many want to have as much direct control as possible, and not be a computer system manager. Most modern Ferraris have driver aids for good reasons (power, regulations etc) but a car that cannot behave in a safe and predictable way without electronic nannies, loses its appeal to many, no matter how fast it is.

    Back to the tdf.
     
  18. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

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    Thank you for a great post. It is refreshing to see an intelligent and well thought out contribution to the discussion. As you get more miles with the tdf, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the car's behavior when pushed hard into corners without electronics cutting in, which is when one really feels the car. I agree with you, in the 812, maybe better traction plus more weight make it less obvious.
     
  19. NeilF8888

    NeilF8888 Formula 3

    Feb 10, 2005
    1,147
    Miami Beach
    I don’t understand the problem with the nannies we use them in race cars all the time and it’s not because of the lack of driving skill. We adjust the ABS and traction control all the time. I use my manetino in my TDF in a similar manner depending on the road and traction conditions. If possible I would have wished for ten settings like we have in the race car for more flexibility.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  20. 4_Eff_Sake

    4_Eff_Sake Formula Junior

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    Exactly this... thanks


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. 4_Eff_Sake

    4_Eff_Sake Formula Junior

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    I think you’ll find that any fighter aircraft designed without the pilot as a focal point is called a drone

    As you say, back to the TDF - the masterpiece that you just can’t live with because you failed to get an allocation so you incessantly and baselessly criticise it


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  22. FLU

    FLU Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2008
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    My petite wife who is not a professional driver and doesn't even drive exotics all that much compared to the rest of us enthusiasts (but is known to have a lead foot and knows only 2 modes, Stop and GOOOOO!) recently drove my TDF for the first time because we had 2 cars to drive home, and she did not want any part of driving a new G63 wagon (hates SUVs) said to me afterwards, "Can we sell my Portofino for a second TDF? This thing DESTROYS it and even your Speciale is no match!"
    I asked her what exactly it was about the car that made her say this and her reply was, "Everything! The way the power comes on with such exact throttle response/control, the hypersensitive but sharp steering, and the love at first sight looks. From the bottom of your pants/gut feeling to the perfect brake pedal feedback, and plus the SOUND is godlike!" I should have given her more credit, it was I who feared her behind the driver's seat of the TDF. So much so, I actually said a little prayer under my breath before we embarked on the drive...lol
    Granted we only pushed maybe 7 to 8 /10ths. Point is, if my 5ft3 108lbs wife can handle and even LOVE driving this car after just 1 go, then almost anyone not lacking fine motoring skills/control specifically presiding over your right foot can enjoy the TDF!
     
  23. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2017
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    Cool wife flu. She’s worth more than a 1000 TDF’s. Congrats.
     
  24. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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  25. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

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    Full Name:
    Barry K


    Fair point, and to be clear I didn't say that I had a problem with driver aids, but rather replying to another poster saying that I personally would have a problem with them. What I did say above is that driver aids are warranted by today's power and regulations etc and that I can see why people may prefer a simple direct connection to the car without them when enjoying a road car. Personally, I am not fussed one way or the other, and just take each car as it comes and start with the assumption that that's how that car is meant to be used.

    For racing, driver aids, if allowed within race regulations, is all about giving the driver an edge and that's always how racing has been. As the level of technology increases it might become more about minimizing the disadvantage that is the driver, which is a whole separate topic. As an analogy, chess computers easily outplay any human, but plenty of us still enjoy playing with each other.

    Unlike racing, for enthusiast driving, the situation is more mixed. For example, if some traction aid cuts in to prevent the car dangerously losing control that's fine by me even if I prefer a car that have that didn't have that tendency to start with.
     

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