F1 - Why does everyone say to NOT downshift to 1st gear

I'll be following this one... I often downshift in my 328 GTS to 1st for the above reasons...
but have heard NOT to do this in an F-1 car... I too like the acceleration from 1st at
a slow turn. Why not so in an F-1 car??

 

More clutch wear perhaps?

 

I think you can downshift into 1st gear as long as the speed is low.

Heck, I've been doing this every since I got my 360 F-1 in 2003. I've logged 52,000 miles and still am on the original factory clutch.

I fried an F-1 sensor and wore out my original F-1 hydraulic pump. WIth the new pump the car shifts better than ever.

Funny thing with the 360 is that the driver can feel or hear most of the problems. If you feel something isn't right, chances are something or some part is abnormal.

Case in point, ever since the car was new, it made some funny sound when shifting. I brought it in to the dealer several times and no one could figure out what was wrong. I've been living with this funny noise for 7 years. Now I get the new pump and the noise is gone!

 

I have no idea why my car (06 F430 F1) sometimes does this and sometimes does not - when I shift into first on the F1, at certain revs it is completely fine and handles the shift perfectly, but I feel that at other rev's and also when my rev's are too low the shift into first causes the car to jerk back and forth as if the clutch doesn't know what to do. This is all while holding the gas pedal as even as possible during the gear changes.

 

I always felt this started with the Dealers not wanting complaints of clutch issues under warranty -- something similar to removing the launch control button from us overly zealous drag stripping maniacs who reside in the good ol' USA.

 

My understanding is that it is hard on the synchros to engage first. This usually isn't a problem with modern vehicles however. BUT if you are in the F1 transmission I would never downshift to 1st. Usually in a standard vehicle with a manual clutch, engaging first takes some extra grunt and for this sole reason I refrain from doing so. I've learnt from day one to not engage first in downshifts, throttle response on our cars is so immediate anyways, there really is no problem in accelerating out of a corner in second.

 

The F-1 transmission basically works like a manual right, so it's probably just as hard on the syncros as when you downshift to 1st with a manual, but I don't see why it would be hard on the clutch.

I don't know exactly why it's so hard to make a transmission with fully synced 1st gear, it seems like all cars (even modern) with some miles on them are hard to downshift to 1st.

 

I think what he means is by downshifting is not to slow down the car but to get into first gear after completing his decceleration.

With the F-1 system in the 360, the automatic downshift to First gear takes a 2 second pause after coming to a standstill.

 

I think that if it were bad for the car, the transmission would hold 2nd gear until a much lower RPM was reached. I say shift within the specified limits of the car and enjoy your driving experience.

 

Not my experience. My car shifts down to first just as I come to a stop.

This is caused by the gears and drive line having a little slack. If you are holding a steady speed there is pressure on the drive line in the positive direction. When you downshift you cause some braking so the drive line transitions from positive to negative forces. The problem is the slack in the system. At slow speeds, when it makes a rapid transition the throttle gets confused if you are accelerating or decelerating. It can cause serious oscillations.

Exactly and right on all counts. You can do a decent 2nd gear start so there isn't any corner on public roads that requires a downshift to first.

 

Right..for this very reason I have completely stopped attempting to manually downshift the F1 into first to slow down prior to a stop., and also when slowly approaching a turn in second. If it downshifts on its own fine..If not there is a little lug in second gear until the revs get higher. I'd rather the lug than that uncontollable jerking.

 

The 360 has triple cone synchros in 1st and 2nd gear because the torque multiplication is so high in those gears (dual in the rest), 14.603:1 in first and 9.591:1 in second. This is drag racer gearing and is lower gearing in both first and second than the drag race 4.11 rear end set-up on C2/C3 Corvettes, with overall ratio of 9.042:1 in 1st.

I can think of few corners requiring 1st gear in a 360, but the system was designed for it with the synchro rings, so if you like it, go for it. 2nd gear is so low, however, any forward velocity at all makes it a suitable gear.

Make sure you change your transmission oil annually. 360s are really rough on transmission oil according to Brian Crall.

Clutch wear from all those downshifts with all that torque multiplication? Sure, but why start a food fight? I personally (horrors) put it in neutral when coming to a stop.

Taz
Terry phillips

 

Every syncro in a 360 trans is a triple cone syncro. The practice started in the 355 trans. There is no more reason to not down shift to 1st in an F1 than in any other manual transmission in any car, truck or tractor. Physics requires 1st gear to be the largest and heaviest so naturally 1st gear is the hardest for the syncros to bring to a speed match with the other gears but ask anyone which syncro wears out the fastest in a gear box. It is always second. It is the second largest and heaviest and you not only shift down to second but you also shift up through it every start so it gets over double the usage.

If you want to take good care of your 360 trans the best thing you can do is change the oil at least once a year. They are very tough on their lubricants.

 

redacted

 

Brian- Thanks. Did not realize they were all triple cone.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

This is exactly why I let the car decide when to shift into 1st.

There is that rare situation where I know the car is about to shift into 1st and the light turns or the traffic moves and 2nd seems too low. I know that if I downshift into 1st, the car becomes a bucking bronco and that's no fun... so I ride it out in 2nd.

Most times, i'm just fine letting the car decide.

Frank

 

Mine will do the same occasionally (07 F1) like a kangaroo series of hops.

 

thanks for the explanation of the drive line positive/negative transitions. I understand it alot better now!

 

I suggest you use your brakes to slow the car down, not the engine (cheaper to replace pads than engine). Also, gear selection should be finished before you turn the steering wheel. If you match the revs of the engine to the speed of the chassis, there should be no problem downshifting to first as long as you keep in mind you now have maximum torque in place with the steering wheel not being straight, so throttle application becomes critical---too much and you loose the rear end.

With the F1 transmission, of course, the computer does this for you. Nonetheless, even in an F1-equipped car, downshifting to first at too high a speed can still upset he car's balance and loosen the rear end. Try to be smooth (even on the street) when entering the turn, in the middle of the turn and when exiting the turn.

You can also try another method. Stay in second, but keep your momentum up as you enter the turn (i.e., faster). Then gently increase your throttle speed as you straighten out the steering wheel. More fun and less work, in my opinion.

 

Glad you guys cleared that up for me, had it happen the other morning pulling into my parket lot at work. Figured I'd throw it in 1st and zoom in, but I ended up bouncing instead of zooming. Hopefully nobody saw

I'm curious, does downshifting to 2nd (f430 w/F1) take longer than it does the other gears for you guys? I can be blipping quickly down through the gears, each one feeling very responsive, but when I get to second it's click... beat... downshift. Instead of being near-instant. Anyone else?

 

My dealer told me this when I got my F430. That's were I got it.