I understand that clutch life depends on a ton of factors. not looking for absolute numbers, but relative numbers. same driver, same condition, if he/she can go 10k miles on F1, how far can he/she go on a manual ? and does city / highway driving affect these relative numbers? if someone drives 80% city and 20% highway, will difference be more or less than if one drives 20% city and 80% highway. or is it how hard the car is driven that affects the relative numbers?
Just think that it is slippage that cause wear. My 430 have not had clutch replacement for 50000 miles. Still 30 percent left. If it last 10k. It is abused. Launch control for example. Highway driving zero wear. City driving much more.
In reality hard to say due to differing driving styles, so only people who own both and drive in the same manner can answer. I suspect this is a small pool of people who have both models, and have worn through clutches on both from new. My 360 F1 car has 70,000km and has just had it's third clutch installed so 35,000km per clutch. Stop / start driving will definitely wear F1 clutch faster due to reasonable slip off the line. Once moving the clutch wear will be comparable between F1 or manual (and very low as wear is caused at take off) so a fair assumption would be highway driven cars could expect close to similar clutch life while city driven could vary wildly. Too many variable factors to get an accurate feel I think. Basically I look at it this way, F1 clutch life does not concern me as I only need to do it about every 10 years.
Many variables here, as you say: F1: What year of F1? There were continual improvements from the start of 360 production to the end of F430 production. Then there's driving style. Manual: Is the hydraulic system in good order? In this instance driving style will heavily affect things. In my previous F430 (manual) the throw out bearing seals actually gave out before the clutch. This was at 30k miles. From visual inspection only I estimated the clutch plates to be at 75% worn. My current car (MY08 F1) had a replacement clutch at 25k miles; the first owner lived in a city centre so it was in a lot of start-stop traffic. I'd expect a late F1 clutch to manage another 10k at least in 'normal' circumstances.
One of my 360 F1 clients lived in the hills and got 70,000 miles on the first clutch. The second was changed at 50,000 only because a transmission input shaft seal leaked and soaked the clutch. My cars I don't change clutches. I recently rebuilt the engine in one and put the old clutch back in. It will be there when I overhaul the engine again. It's up to the driver.
It's not necessarily the clutch that goes out first !! I drive a manual 360 Modena and I had to replace the throw-out bearing twice in 15 years of ownership and about 3500 km per year. So, even though I drove very carefully and the clutch still had life, I replaced it twice so far based, since when the transmission is removed, you usually want to replace the clutch as well !!
FChat pros estimate the throw-out bearing cycles 2-3 times more often for F1 than a three pedal bearing does. Especially if you are one of those who lets the F1 system automatically downshift to 1st at every stop. When the throw-out bearing is shot, or the clutch position sensor goes on V12s, might as well put in a whole new clutch, T/O bearing, and clutch position sensor. Pilot bearing for us anal types, too.
Late 2002 360 spider with first clutch passing 74000km which are 46000 miles .... and counting. Regards Joerg
Some very promising mileage posted here! I feel like when I joined here some used to act like you were LUCKY to get 10-15k out of an F1 clutch. Funny how over time, as these cars rack up mileage, those numbers have changed quite a bit.
Some people are still lucky to. For one there are a whole bunch of them out there not working well. And there is another whole bunch that had a clutch replaced and not correctly that will not go the distance.
Working with a competent mechanic isn't luck. It requires skill to pick the right people AND willingness to pay for their skills. Cheaping out on everything just leads to misery later.
Some think they are all the same. Some think it doesn't matter. Some pick their mechanic based on the sign on the wall. And believe me in the years I was in a dealer we never hesitated to remind them about that great big yellow sign. I know the game very well.
That's also a good point, I suppose it quite literally pays to make sure you have reputable people working on your vehicles. Paying more upfront will save you quite a bit if you have to change a clutch every 15k vs 40k... Are the issues you speak of related to the work or quality of parts used? I know Lambo guys with the early Gallardos said their OEM clutches had design flaws where they lasted anywhere from 4k-10k before requiring replacement.
There were updates. I know of shops that are unaware of them.....including a few dealers. There are many out there who think the flywheel cannot be resurfaced so just put a new clutch on them. Thy flywheels get bowl shaped badly from heat and a clutch put on that will never work correctly. Then there are the shops who either do not have one of the factory computers to reset the system or who do not have the knowledge of its proper use so the appropriate settings are not made. Then there are the shops that either do not really know how they are supposed to work or are unfamiliar of what to do to make them work correctly. I have met a lot of owners who have been told that whatever theirs is doing is normal and they are living with it. It is not alien technology but you have to understand how it works and be equipped to deal with it and many are just winging it.
Wait! Are you saying people don’t know how to drive? I would hang my head in shame if I only got 50k on a clutch. I just brought a 1974 Jensen Healey with 150k on the original clutch. Shifting is almost half the fun. I’ll be disappointed if I don’t make it to 200k. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
if that's true AND many here said throw-out bearing often go bad before the clutch does. that woud mean F1 clutch life should last about 50% of 3 pedal ones.
There are techniques for minimizing T/O bearing cycles and techniques for extending the clutch life that also help with the T/O bearing life. So no, that is not a correct assumption. T/O bearings are designed to outlive the clutch plate, but it is dumb not to change it when a new clutch is installed, just like the clutch position sensor and pilot bearing. Biggest thing for clutch and T/O bearing life is making sure the clutch is set up properly, like Brian said. Learning how to drive F1 properly helps, too, but there are lots of differences in opinion there.
My sense of the original question - what is the comparative life span between clutches used in gated vs. F1 transmissions - is that depending on the driver involved, a clutch in a gated manual has the potential for outlasting one in an F1. This is especially true if for whatever reason (like maybe the only way to get in or out of a particular garage is to back in), the car with the F1 needs to back up a lot (esp. uphill). But apart from the need for backing up, why do I say this? Because the F1 approximates automated behavior by slipping the clutch. This is necessary because the F1 box doesn't have the feel for the conditions that a human could have, and the flywheel is fairly light. While the amount of clutch slippage is done relatively consistently compared to human repetition, the human driver can get a feel for the clutch and engage it at lower RPM and/or take more care to be sure the clutch is fully engaged before feeding the car more accelerator. That said, as others note, a lot more has to do with driver variability than F1 vs. gated. Drag-racing style starts, or riding the clutch, could wear one out in relatively few miles, while a different driver might get 35-50k miles out of the same car. Slightly off-topic, but since our cars are all getting old at this point, has anyone gone to any clutch material or supplier other than OEM, and if so, is that working out w/o any downsides? Any benefits? For me, it's not necessarily a cost issue, but I have to believe there have been advances in materials since our cars were first made back in the early 2000s. All cars will eventually need new clutches, and I was wondering what the collective experience has been with OEM and non-OEM clutches.
The only other ones I've seen have been kevlar based clutches, like the ones made by Hi-Tech mentioned in this thread: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/kevlar-clutch-360cs-f1-hi-tech-exotic-thoughts.579710/ Unfortunate that Ferrari owners haven't had much luck/experience with them, because they seem very popular with the Gallardo crowd.
I had a F1 360 for 8 or so years and put on about 18K miles . Sport mode and reversing up hill I was told accelerates wear - backing out of drives etc or parking nose down on a slope a lot . I only ever had the car serviced at an official dealer and they used to adjust something and set it up when it went in .Part of the service was a test drive before and after and sign off . It was a 02 MY and had the latest gearbox ECU or TCU updates so was very smooth , up and down .As someone’s said they are not for workshops who don,t have the correct computers etc . Another variable easy to fix is the TCU fluid , it needs regularly refreshing .I used to suck out with a pump the reservoir tank and refill with fresh every 3 months .It gets hot running and deteriorates leading to jerky changes or in other words sub optimal clutch plate contact , again accelerates wear of the plates . There’s also a solinoid for the pump that wears starts sticking , the points get hot , so that needs changing .I used to carry spares in the glove box .Wrong pump pressure can make sloppy changes = accelerates wear in normal use . A lot of guys whinge about anywhere between 5/12 k miles of life dispute sensible driving , but the thing is basically not maintained properly.Not set up regularly, old hydraulic overheated fluid , poor solinoid .
Really? You carry a F1 solenoid valve in your glovebox? I'd love to see how you change the solenoid when you have a F1 failure somewhere on the highway This is rather a job which takes a whole day, including bleeding and adaption afterwards. But generally, good points which you mentioned. Most people don't change the F1 fluid at all but I strongly recommend to change it at least every one or two years. The fluid is exposed to high pressure (up to 60bar) and temperature (above 100°C), so is consequently subjected to wear. Cheers, Dominik from SequParts
