F1 pump cycling

excessive cycling is a symptom of potential pump failing. Unfortunately, I don't think the SD 3 diagnostics can detect when that will happen.

 

I have wired a monitor on our car 2002 f1 giving me the ability to see the pump run whenever it does.

On a normal drive it pumps for two seconds every 10th gear change.
During spirited frequent shifting it will go on every 6 gear changes.
During stop and go on for two seconds every 5 minutes or so.
In sixth gear continuous driving it will pump every 20 minutes two for seconds total.

I am not certain my car is the norm but it is what I know for sure happens in my case. Any input from others in the "know" is appreciated.

When I open the door during the first start in a.m. it pumps 6-8 seconds.

I also need to know what is the norm, because I feel I am experience a pressure loss. Perhaps not, but I do want to know for certain.

 

430 pump duty cycle should be no more then 8% (on/off time) at 20mph on a straight road steady throttle. Generally increased on time is caused by internal leakage of the e-diff control valve. This is easily monitored with SD3, we do it all the time. Another quick test is to rapidly go up and down several gears during steady freeway speed 6 to 4 and back to 6. Any concern will result in a slowdown lamp after several cycles.

 

That is normal (6-8 sec). The pump is turned on when the prressure in the hydraulilc system accumulator drops below certain level and then is turned off when the pressure reaches the required level. If you experience very frequent cycles or gears tart to drop into Neutral when shifting - the electric motor of your F1 pump will burn pretty soon... Search my previous threads and posts on this subject.

 

+1

However, the SD2 or SD3 can not diagnose failin electric motor of the F1 pump unit untill it's burnt.

Therefore, it is adviseable to replace electric motor of the F1 pump evry 3 years profilcatically,
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=6167

Otherwise, you are risking to end up paying hundreds of dollars just for a dolly system-equipped wreker to tow your car and even more at the dealers to replace the whole F1 pump unit...

 

Replacing a F1 pump every 3 years is a wast of time and money. If you know how to use the Sd units properly you can very easily diagnose pump failure. If you do not have a SD unit then a labscope that can monitor amperage draw and voltage will show you a failing pump, bad armature, worn brushes. The 430 pumps have been completely trouble free as the 430 has a larger pump/motor due to the introduction of the e-diff. The 360 units are virtually always ruined by a stuck rellay. Replace the rellay annually and elliminate that concern. Remember the 430 will turn on a slow down warning on the dash and turn the pump off for 30 seconds if pump on time is excessive and is in danger of overheating the motor.

 

Replacing only the relay will not solve the problem of failing electric motor of the F1 pump. The aluminum pump head itself is never a problem. It is the electric motor, which goes bad first, which causes less effective pumping cycles become longer, the relay gets closed ("on" position) for much longer time, which causes it to overheat to the degree that sometimes results in "welding" of the contacts together... As the result, this causes a vicious circle untill the 30A fuse for the F1 pump finally blows as well. That is the sign that the motor needs to be replaced. As I said before, the pump head is virtually indestructable; one has to change only the electric motor - just unscrew 2 screws, change the motor to the new type, which is as reliable as those new F430 pump motors. Moreover, there is a new type Tyco relay for the 1999-2003 models of 360F1

Install the new relay and electric motor, which will twice less expensive than installing the whole new F1 pump and old type relay and you will not have to worry about your F1 hydraulic system any more...
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=6167
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=5771

 

Is the "Slow Down" indicator for excessive pumping only on the 430 or will the 360 do that as well?

 

Windsock
Just looking for clarity. Can the SD3 measure current draw of the pump Motor? Juri seems to agree the pump is pretty solid. I know a scope can. Dont own a SD3 so just askin how the SD3 can show motor failure.

 

It's the same for both, the 360 and 430 - same "slow down" indicator will start lighting up.

However, it is lighting up not because of "excessive pumping", but due to low pressure in the hydraulic accumulators system, that is due to inefficient pumping - the motor is turning slower, less torque, the pump head can not deliver enough pressure into the accumulator, the pressior sensor alerts the TCU about the lack of pressure and TCU warns the driver that F1 system functionality is compromised, because due the low pressure in the accumulator (that round black bulb-like reservoir on top of the block of solenoids) the system will not be able to switch gears accurately...

 

To the best of my knowledge, SD3 can not measure the current draw on the pump motor. I have plugged in parallel wires into the 30A fuse to measure the drawn amperage. Bottom line is - if your F1 pump motor is near it's death and starts to draw more than 20A (8-12A is normal per Magneti Marelli specifications), then it's gona blow the 30A fuse, which is there for the very reason ....

I have assembled ans disassembeled the F1 pump and the F1 whole hydraulic system and it's electrical controls several times to really learn the way it has been designed and should be functioning... I had not seen a system as simple, yet prone to failure, as the one in 360F1... That is why I decided to find a more reliable motor and relay for the F1 pump.

 

Thanks Juri, but wouldn't the F1 light would also flash if pressure is not high enough?

I had a slow down light come on 2 weeks ago (but no F1 light) after I topped off my gas tank accidentally. The light has stayed off and not sure if it was due to O2 sensor going bad or now this "inefficient pumping" or something else. I am going to keep an eye on this.

-Jim

 

Yes indeed, the F1 light would also flash if pressure in the F1 hydraulic fluid acucmulator is low due to malfuncitoning pump. If the pump is soon to "go south", when you start driving everything seems fine, but when the system warms up, then the pump malfunction will start to manifest itself as a bllicking to permanent F1 light on the diagnostic part of the instrument cluster.

I saw your other post regarding the "slow down" sign, but IMO overfilling the gas tank had nothing to do with this... Check your O2 sensors and clean the air mass sensors as well using throttle cleaner spray. I had a similar symptom for about 3-4 days after I purchased my car (360F1 Spider 2001), which was eliminated by cleaning the air mass sensors as suggested above.

Call me, if you have any questions.

 

The OP was asking about the 430, and advice was given regarding experience with the 360.

As you can see, this pump motor for 360 etal, advertised by Juri here:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=6167

Is much smaller than that found on the pump for the 430 etal, advertised by Ricambi here:

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=337466

So, replacing the pump motor every 3 years on a 430 may indeed be a waste of money.

 

As you may know - the "bigger" is not necessarily "better", which is also true for the electric motor for the F1 pump. It's the design and manufacturing quality that matters ! By the way, there is only a 1/2 inch difference in the diameter of the old and new electric motor... The new "larger" F1 pump assembly includes reduction gears set between the motor and pump head, to improve the torque and compensate for the lack of power of the motor.

FYI: Originally, Magnetti Marelli got the design of their F1 pump from Marzocchi (Italy), but then subcontracted the manufacturing of the morors to DENSO Europe and the manufacturing of pump heads to a company in eastern Europe. DENSO acquired an 80 percent share of Magneti Marelli S.p.A.’s Rotating Machines Division in April 1999. At the end of 2001 DENSO became 100% owner of Magneti Marelli Manufacturing, that was founded in 1972. But the quality of the F1 pump motor went drastically down. The motor had a flawed design to begin with... That is why DENSO-MARELLI "upgraded" to the only other 12V DC motor that they had, but of a larger size, which does not make it any better than what they had before...

Other European car manufacturers that used the Marelli F1 pump pushed DENSO-MARELLI to use suppliers of more reliable electric motors for production of the F1 pump, because almost 30 different models of cars in Europe use the same type of F1 pump (i.e., Lamborghini, Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Mercedes, BMW) as well as Chinese car manufacturers (i.e.,
QQ car). Specifically, Mercedes used exactly the same type of motor in the F1 pump for their Sprint vans, Alfa Romeo in their Selespeed F1 system, BMW in their SMG system, and all of those car models had the same problem as Ferraris...

Therefore, there is now a new manufactirer of a better designed and more reliable electric motor for the F1 pump, which is used by all other European manufacturers (including German car makers, Mercedes and BMW). This is the motor that I am advertising in the FerrariAds section. Ferrari is stuck with their contract wth DENSO-MARELLI and can not use another motor that is better (engineers in Mercedes whould know better what they are doing). There were no issues with the new F1 pump used on those cars anymore, which, unfortunately, can not be said about the cars we all love - Ferraris ...

The new motor I have, has been substituted for the old ones (either burnt or just as precaution) in more than 50 cars by now. The beauty is that you dont have to disconnect the hydraulic head and can avoid getting the air into the hydraulic lines, which requires bleedign the system (using an SD3 or SD5 tool). The whole swap is done by uncrewing two screws on the pump head and two screws that attach the motor to the frame. The record time for the whole procedure is currently at 3 minutes 42 seconds (!!!) and no lengthy bleeding procedures. "Even a caveman can do this..."

Another interesting fact for F430 owners is that the "old" type motor ( with smaller diameter, 2.5") was installed on early F430 cars up to the assembly #61588. Therefore, the motor I advertise in the FerrariAds section can be used on F430s as well.

In summary, my response to the opinion expressed by our esteemed colleague from Albuquerque (who has joined FerrariChat only recently), that replacing the pump motor every 3 years on a 430 is a "waste of money" - Good luck! I trully hope that you and other F430 will not get srtanded on the side of a road one day, because of the burnt F1 pump motor, and will not have to pay for towing, the whole new pump, and the whole nine yards, which is far more than the cost of an F1 pump motor.

Of course, everyone decides what is best for themselves...

Chiao!

 

Thanks Juri for your excellent update on this matter. I agree that several European car manufacturers had the same issues with this DENSO-MARELLI F1 hydraulic motor.

But who is the manufacturer of the new hydraulic motor?

On a F430, has this new hydraulic motor been installed by Ferrari? You wrote that some earlier F430's still had the DENSO-MARELLI motor. Do you know up to which make # this old motor was installed? How visually can I check which motor I have on my F430?

Many thanks,
Stef

 

The new motor has not been installed in F430 or any other Ferrari cars. It is used in late model Lamborghinis, however.

You asked who is the manufacturer of the new hydraulic pump motor. I am sorry, but I am not in a position to reveal this information.

As I wrote before, the old type of F1 pump motor was installed in F430 up to accembly number #61588. If your F1 pump motor has a DENSO-Marelli logo on it - it is the old model.
You can use a small mirror and a flashllight to inspect the sticker positioned towards the back of the motor body.

 

Thanks for the additional info. I will check on my car but I'm pretty much sure I have the Denso.

It's a pity you can't reveal the manifacturer of the new pump motor...how can I trust a part without knowing where it comes from...especially if it's not a oem spare part. I'll find out amongst my sources to know who is now providing this pump motor for the European car manifacturers I understand you protect your business but I believe people here have the right to know

 

Also sold on Ebay :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Electric-Motor-12V-DC-F1-hydraulic-pump-Ferrari-360-/260736806580?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item3cb51feeb4

but indicates :

Part Brand: Denso-Marelli (OES), Italy
Manufacturer Part Number: BM.0004708.D

????

 

Stef, Juri- Same pump is used on the 575M and early 612s, too.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Taz, you are right about the use of this pump on other Ferrari models.
Here is the full list:

360 Modena
575M
612 Scaglietti
Challenge Stradale
ENZO

Stef, the pump selling on eBay states "OES" = Original Equipment Specifications for DENSO-Marelli model BM.0004708.D, but it is manufactured by at least two other Italian companies that I know about.
Again, I am not in a position to disclose the name of that manufacturer, but even if I could, that company would not sell retail to end-users or wholesale to other parts distributors in the US. Of course, I am sure you can research yourself and find out about those manufacturers - good luck with that, but why? Are you in the automotive parts bubsiness or something?

Sometimes I wonder, why people can not be simply glad that there is a cheaper and more reliable alternative product on the market than a crappy original sold at 2-3 times higher price ?

Perplexed me...

 

Juri, I understand my questions frustrates you but the cheaper price isn't enough to convince people to buy this part. What matters most is the quality of this part and I want to make sure this is not manufactured somewhere in China with poor quality control and cheap internal components. Such pump should last the lifetime of our cars. Not to be changed every 3 years. Many other cars using the original Denso pump motor on E46 M3, Selespeed, Maserati etc did made well over 100.000 km with this original pump without any issues at all.

If you could at least publish the technical datasheet/specifications of this pump motor, I would already be a bit more confident of the quality and how they engineered it.

 

Stef,

I would like to avoid polemics about the life-cycle of F1 pump motor... In the wast majority of cars equipped with the old-type F1 pump, the motor failed quite quicky, in less than 3 years. So "should last" vs "actually lasted" are two quite different things...

To satisfy your curiosity, I include pictures from the official Italian manufacturer's blueprints of the motor and electromechanical specs in Italian. Although, I dont have to convince you or anybody else, maybe reading italian blueprints will convince you that I am not describing some Chinese no-name manufacturer's c_r_a_p.

Respectfully yours...
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