355 - F1 gearbox light flashes continuously | FerrariChat

355 F1 gearbox light flashes continuously

Discussion in '348/355' started by yelcab, Sep 1, 2024.

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  1. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    Mitchell Le
    My buddy has a 99 355F1. He had some shifting issues with the F1 gearbox light continuing to flash. His F1 pump is old and loud so we changed the F1 pump (making sure it turns in the same direction as the old one). We also changed the accumulator. The whole operation took less than 2 hours.

    Closed the engine lid. Closed the trunk lid. Closed the door. Fired up the engine, it runs. The car is in Neutral. The display is N so the TCU knows the car is in neutral. The F1 Gearbox Light continues to flash and we cannot shift into any gear.

    As an experiment, we hooked up a battery to the F1 pump while the ignition is turned on (car not running), and let it run for 45 seconds, the F1 gearbox light continues to flash and does not turn off.

    What could be some issues to check out?
     
  2. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Potentiometer?

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  3. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    But would it cause the F1 light to flash? The 355 is not friendly to OBD2 scanner for F1 issues... so I cannot tell at al.
     
  4. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Brake switch is working.
    Brake lights are working.
     
  5. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    If the TCU can't figure out where it is it will flash

    The other thing is air in the actuator

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  6. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    It knows it is in N, the display says so.
    I have no SD1 so all of this is a lot of guessing ...
     
  7. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Flash, is there a way to bleed the actuator?
     
  8. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    At first key on Ignition Off, the pump runs for 20 seconds then turns off. It stays off for 10 seconds, and turns back on and runs for 7 seconds, and then turns off. And it repeats on for 7 seconds, off for 10 seconds while the key is on and the F1 Gearbox light flashes continuously.

    Could it be a hydraulic leak inside the system?
     
  9. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Normally that condition you mention is exactly a bad accumulator..but you changed it

    It can be air in the system and you need a tool that talks to the TCU to bleed correctly

    It also can be a bad solenoid that is internally leaking

    There is .01 percent chance it is the check valve as well in power unit

    Without a proper diag tool it will be hard to diag it correctly

    I named all the possibilities though especially if you don't see any leaks on floor and level is good

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  10. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    If blinking means it thinks it is in that gear but not sure it not fully engaged within grid .. meaning pots are worn

    Sounds like you have to choose one item and go down the list

    A good bleed of clutch and actuator first ..need proper diagnosis tool

    Check pressure drop and values making sure pressure sensor is goon
    Reevaluate accumulator...maybe bad part
    Start replacing solenoids



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  11. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    I read the long Hacking the F1 TCU thread especially the portion about the Gearbox Fault light (what I call the F1 Gearbox Light). Wolfgang describes the Gearbox Fault light to be in a flashing state only when it detects the pressure to be below the threshold.

    He describes the Gear Indicator Light (1, 2, N etc) to indicate the condition where the sensors do not know where they are.

    So, my case this time seems to be the system pressure is below minimum and the Gearbox Fault Light flashes and the system does not shift.

    Is it true that is the only reason for the F1 Gearbox Fault light to be flashimg?
     
  12. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Mitch

    I think we are saying the same thing ...

    Given your timings need to find out why pressure is dropping son quickly..I think my post (10) is a good plan of attack

    I would be happy to help on the phone as well ..you have my number

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  13. JazP

    JazP Rookie

    Feb 23, 2013
    49
    Grab a Voltmeter and test it! It's pin 51 against ground (e.g. pin 20). According to the WSM, the sensor output is 0,5V plus 1,0V each 20 bars. Given a normal system pressure of around 50 to 60 bars, your voltmeter should read at least 3 Volts

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  14. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Great info. I will get to do that today.
     
  15. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    That will definitely test to see if the system gets to the right pressure when pump shuts off .meaning testing the sensor

    But I think the problem is the pressure is falling too fast .. again usually a bad accumulator, or not as freq (internally) leaking solenoid

    But I would start with a good bleed always .. air does things that look like other symptoms

    I am wondering if when the accumulator was changed if air entered system

    Was the accumulator that you replaced a OEM and new

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  16. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    @flash32, @JazP, Tested the pressure transducer signal today.

    The computer definitely knows when the connector is off. It produces a beep and a solid F1 Gearbox Fault light on the dash.
    I plugged the connector back in, turned the key on, no ignition, and the pump runs for 20 seconds. Then off for 10 seconds and on for 7 seconds. This is the test result for the 3 pins on the transducer.

    The Vcc pin is steady at 5V
    GRD pin is solid to ground
    The signal pin goes to 1.8V (26 bars) and then the pump stops, and the signal immediately drops down to 0.8V (6 bars).

    Scenario 1: IF the transducer is good, then the pump generates up to 26 bars (still below the minimum) and stops, then comes back at 6 bars and repeats. And the pressure is dropping very quickly within seconds while no shifting is taking place.

    Scenario 2: IF the transducer is bad, then it never generates enough of a signal to tell the TCU that system pressure is good.

    Question: why would the pump stop when the system pressure is still below the minimum threshold?
     
  17. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    The accumulator is a new OEM one. Looks the same as the one that came out of there. And air could have entered the system when the replacement took place, but I have no way to do a proper system bleed. I did open the bleed screw on the Power Unit and let it run out to about 1/2 a bottle, but no air was seen coming out.
     
  18. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #18 flash32, Sep 3, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2024
    I cannot comment on voltage tests .. never did one so not sure if manual is correct
    At this point , if accumulator is good ( 20 second first cycle shows that actually) .. you most likely have a bad solenoid (s)
    Again without having the proper tool to do bleeding etc .. not sur ehow you would go about changing a solenoid
    Have you tried ( i never did) .. start car and bleed clutch .. there should be pressure there to bleed clutch

    BTW - did you have any issues with pump run times with key "on" only or shifting before changing pump and accumulator
     
  19. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Before the change, yes it was having problem shifting sometimes, and it got worse to most times, and then all the times. Hence the change in pump and accumulator...
     
  20. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    I did open the clutch bleed screw (13mm wrench) and fluid came out ... no air though.
     
  21. JazP

    JazP Rookie

    Feb 23, 2013
    49
    Is your gearbox in neutral right now?
     
  22. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Yes, it is in Neutral. and the display says N so it knows it's in neutral.

    I turned on the key, disconnected the three solenoid connectors under the pressure switch (one at a time) and the car beeped as well as the F1 Fault light stays on Solid. Plugging each connector back in stops the beeping and get the F1 light to flash again. So, the TCU is doing its troubleshooting pretty good.

    Funny, disconnecting the other 3 solenoid connectors (one at a time) did not get the car to beep at all... I don't know what that means. Each of those connectors has a solid ground so that is not a problem.
     
  23. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    Really need to do a relearn..I know you need a tool you don't have access to ..but I am running out of options here

    Do you know anyone that can lead you a Leo for a few days ..

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  24. JazP

    JazP Rookie

    Feb 23, 2013
    49
    Your transducer works fine. There is no link between the sensor signal and the stop of the pump other than the pressure. So if the signal drops immediately by nearly half of its value, then your hydraulic pressure does as well. Which is definitely not right.

    Your TCU also works fine. If it does not see >= 3 Volts from the pressure sensor, then according to Wolfgang it will flash the warning light and disable shifting.


    Wolfgang would probably know, but why would it matter in your case? 10 sec. should be enough to prime your hydraulic system. Maybe it disables the pump for safety reasons (e.g. thermal protection).


    Pobably because the first three solenoids were of proportional type (PPV/QPV) whereas the others of On/Off type. But again: Wolfgang could probably know, but why would it matter? There is no indication that your TCU is faulty.
     
  25. JazP

    JazP Rookie

    Feb 23, 2013
    49
    I assume that you either have (1) air in the system, (2) a bad accumulator or that there is (3) an internal leakage in your hydraulic block.

    As for (1), I suggest you rule out that there is any air in your system. Did you open the hydraulic system other than at the accumulator? Usually it is not necessary to bleed when changing it. But maybe your case is different.

    You need to bleed: At the block, at the clutch and at the control arm. The first you did and the second as well. The control arm has three bleed screws that should be loosened when running the corresponding diagnostic job. As you have no SD1, you could try to charge the system and loosen the screws anyway. Maybe you're lucky and something positive happens.

    As for (2), your accumulator is new and in working condition. Correct?

    As for (3)... well, I'm afraid this is the most probable cause. It is that the car had the very same issues before you started your repair attempts, right? This would make the previous two options unlikely, as there certainly neither was air in the system before all the time nor did you replace a faulty accumulator with another faulty one. Right?

    Things that could cause an internal leak: Solenoids, pressure relief valve, check valve, block failure.

    You could manually inspect the pressure relief valve. Unscrew it and check for dirt and signs of wear. You could also try to check the solenoids. It is tricky without a proper diagnostic tool. But you could imitate it. Let me know if you wanna go this way.
     
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