News

F1 commits to hybrid power units for next generation of engines

Discussion in 'F1' started by DF1, Nov 12, 2020.

  1. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    31,566
    South Pacific
    Full Name:
    Bas
    I maintain that eliminating ICE altogether is ambitious at best, and also wrong, as the math presented to/by governments is based on ideal circumstances. I think Porsche may well be on the right path with their new synthetic fuel. A combination of the two, synthetic fuel hybrids, is likely the best answer.
     
    stavura, jpalmito, 375+ and 1 other person like this.
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. pilotoCS

    pilotoCS F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    May 19, 2019
    5,047
    The District
    Full Name:
    W. B.
    Also, what happened in Texas these past weeks revealed significant flaws in the power grid. If they had gone to totally electric vehicles, they would have been massively screwed under those circumstances.
     
  4. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    31,566
    South Pacific
    Full Name:
    Bas
    Bingo. The forcing of EV on manufacturers is rushed. Governments aren't even prepared for a bit of snow.
     
    stavura, Flavio_C, 375+ and 1 other person like this.
  5. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Sep 20, 2009
    5,335
    Andreas Preuninger at Porsche was mentioning their progress on synthetic fuels during the new GT3 Launch. Sounded promising.
     
    william, stavura, jpalmito and 2 others like this.
  6. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    31,566
    South Pacific
    Full Name:
    Bas
    Really looking forward to how that develops. Hybridization is inevitable I would say for city driving, but that's better than full electric only...!
     
    william likes this.
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Sep 20, 2009
    5,335
    I'll have to look into more, but if I'm not mistaken, I think he said they have a technology/refinery partner already in South America that is making test samples. Regardless, I hope they keep some of the emotion of IC engines, I can't imagine attending an F1 race with a bunch of electric slot cars going round and round.
     
    Bas likes this.
  9. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    31,566
    South Pacific
    Full Name:
    Bas
    I think that form is racing will be so unpopular F1 would cease to exist, and I doubt Liberty would buy F1 simply to dispose of it.

    Porsche isn't stupid, so I presume they'll provide the full figures involved with synthetic fuel vs EV and total environmental impact. I've got a feeling synthetic fuel will be significantly more friendly than EV.
     
    jpalmito and Hawkeye like this.
  10. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Sep 20, 2009
    5,335
    If the winds of change bring synthetic fuel to F1, and Porsche is the development leader, I'd love to see a single seater from Stuttgart!
     
    375+ and Bas like this.
  11. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    31,566
    South Pacific
    Full Name:
    Bas
    VW/Audi group has teased long enough...Porsche of course was in F1 a few times over the course of history, as engine supplier and as a team. Time for a return!
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Silver Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2005
    8,103
    +1 Absolutely
     
    jpalmito and Bas like this.
  14. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,572
    There is at least factor of 2× in Lithium batteries--the new Lithium sulfur batteries for example over Lithium Ion.
    But I can agree that there does not appear to be anything in the 2× range chemically possible after that.

    But gasoline has 46 MJ/kg while even the best Lithium sulfur only has 1.8MJ/Kg--a 25.5× disadvantage; down from 52× from lithium ion.......
    Given that motors can get into the 80% TE range and the current F1 engines in the 50% range, the performance curve is still strongly pointed at ICEs by 16:1.
     
    Flavio_C and Bas like this.
  15. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    31,566
    South Pacific
    Full Name:
    Bas
    I had a quick read up about these Sulfur batteries, it seems their biggest downside is leaking which of course reduces re-usability enormously, which immediately throws away the ''good for environment'' argument and of course, makes them not at all suitable for road cars.

    - -

    It's hard to get a real world comparison as to how slow the Formula E's really are, seeing as they only run on their own tracks that no one else can race on, and even then they are not on racing slicks. A simulator as shown below gives a pretty good idea what sort of times are possible (seeing as conditions don't vary). Of course it's not completely accurate but not far off real world conditions.



    A 2019 Formula E car is slower than a ~10 year old Nissan GTR. Both on street tyres... Those that are thinking that Batteries can bridge the gap, because ICE has been in development for 100+ years and Li-ion batteries for only 30, consider this: ICE engines are 50% efficient (as you mention above), Li-ion batteries are at 99%. Also consider that ICE engines really weren't about improving efficiency for much of their life. The real big strides in efficiency have only been in development for around 30 years, and with huge wins in the last few years. li-ion batteries also may not have had *that much* development on the car side, but in the highly competitive mobile phone and laptop market that's been 30 years of development purely based on battery life, weight and performance.

    Li-Sulfur batteries with roughly double the performance of li-ion will either only increase range by double or double the power at similar discharge rate (if heat is not the issue).

    F1 fully electric? I just don't see it.
     
  16. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,572
    turbo ICE hybrids, not just ICEs.

    [/QUOTE] Li-ion batteries are at 99%. [/QUOTE]

    Only at low discharge rates (street velocities in a street car), at high discharge rates (drag racing) they are only 80%-ish, at 20 minute race discharge rated 90%-ish.
     
    Bas likes this.
  17. william

    william F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    17,327
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles
    Don't forget INEOS (1/3 owner of Mercedes-AMG).
    It's one of the biggest chemical company, and they are very much into synthetic fuel already.
     
    Hawkeye likes this.
  18. william

    william F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    17,327
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles
    You are right; it's very important to make the distinction.

    Worshiped by some for their noise; atmospheric ICEs are not very efficient.
     
  19. itschris

    itschris Formula 3

    Sep 15, 2011
    1,215
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Chris
    I was really hoping for something innovative that splits the difference ... like what Pay Symonds had been suggesting with the latest tech in 2 cycle engines. Politics of course rue the day. I still find it laughable that anyone involved in F1 has the balls to even utter a sentence about sustainability and the environment. Let's save a few gallons on the car, but burn the world down with jets flying their crap all over the world. Just utterly hypocritic and laughable.
     
    375+ likes this.

Share This Page