What can be the reason for the frequently reported short F1 clutch life, some of which I believe are below 10,000? Surely the system doesn't abuse the clutch-plate any more than the aggressive starts that we might do in a manual change, on a spirited day, when we might feel like 'Schumi'? Is there more to it? It's the same clutch and pressure-place (right?) with the only difference being the electro-hydraulic actuator. I do notice that at high speed up-shifts the clutch engages on a slightly more sliding/gradual style than you might achieve with your left foot. Is this the cause of the short life? There's a mystery here someplace that I don't quite get. I'm paranoid about abusing it, and absolutely never stay in gear in traffic stationary situations. I would be grateful to, and would love to hear the views of the gurus on the site.
My limited understanding of the F1 system leads me to believe it is more inclined to slip the clutch than a (talented) human driver would, which is always more of a wear factor than high performance driving. Gary
Gary, I was hoping that this wouldn't be one of the possible reasons, but of course you may well be right. If that suspicion is correct, and let's face it, we know that a 'more or less' permanently slipping clutch will shorten it's life much more quickly than the occassional bit of abuse, but wouldn't it indicate that there is no clearance between the thrust bearing and the pressure plate fingers, and is something that could be rectified by adjustment?
Occassionally (1 in 20 times), when I am pulling away slowly in first (usually when the car has not warmed up completely) I hear a whinning/screeching sound- is that the clutch slipping? 360/ model year 2000 with 18K miles on it. As I am the 4th owner of the car and I am sure we all had different driving styles, which could make the clutch a problem dont you think? In the car history i noticed clutch was replaced once already at about 5K, which seems very low but there had already been 2 owners by then. I have been told clutch can be adjusted, and measured. Next time car is in for service I guess I will find out.
If my understanding is correct. The F1 gearbox is designed to slip and has a greater amount of clutch slip. It seems the smoother the shifts (say in Auto mode) the more clutch wear. Also it would seem that if you are launching your F1 car from a standstill to any speed 60+ sort of racing that you are wearing your clutch even more. I believe the both of you are correct that with F1 shifting you as the driver may not have as good of a sense as to the amount of slipping the clutch is doing vs a regular 6-speed. I like the both of you would love to hear from the experts here. Also one other question. Is the CS F1 different from a regular 360 F1? Thank you for this thread. I have been wondering the same questions.
IMO the clutch wear in the 430 will be drastically reduced due to improvements. Of course this will hold true with wise useage. Time will tell but this was suggested by an F technician.
Thomas, It is my understanding that the software in the CS is programmed quite differently. Gary, Again you're probably right, but why would they factor-in such a high degree of slipping, since surely this must account for a high degree of warranty for clutch replacement? Donie
I've had my 2001 360 F1 since new. It's now at 39,000 miles and had only one clutch change at 30,000 miles. The car's driven mostly in sport mode with the exception of freeways (darn expansion joints need the softer suspension setting) and very rough road surfaces. Long time ago, a Ferrari tech told me that clutch slip is much less in sport mode so I might as well just leave it there. I've followed this and seems to work well so far. Also note that I do not do burnouts and other shenanigans that would cause short clutch life. Proper adjustment by the techician is important too.
Willis, Thanks for that post. That information is encouraging. The use of sport mode makes some sense since the shifting programming in sport would probably bring it closer to the way in which the CS operates, a bit more snappier that the slow sliding shifting in normal.
I had Ferrari of Atlanta connect my car to the computer and it showed 0.63% clutch wear in 1200 miles....100,000 mile clutch??? It sounds too good to be true.
It seems that if this is the case, why not as its more fun to drive in Sport anyhow! Anybody else heard of this to diminish clutch wear in F1 transmissions?
Just some thoughts on F1 clutch wear. I have a Stradale and have also ridden with many others with all kinds of Ferrari's with F1. It seems some people try to drive them like automatic transmissions. I don't think you want to take off like an automatic. This is a manual clutch being operated by the computer, so taking off is kind of like using the clutch pedal on full manual. I try to take off gently "feeling the clutch slip" and not giving it much throttle until the clutch feels fully engaged. Then the sky is the limit. Kind of a two step throttle application. I assume if you just give it gas like an automatic that has to wear the clutch alot faster. Just some thought about why some would wear faster than others. The Cambiocorsa in my Maserati Gransport slips alot when the engine is cold. The computer clutch release is somewhere around 1600 to 1800 RPM. After it is warm then it closer to the Stradale. The dealer has adjusted the warm setting as best they can but so far do not have the software to fix the cold slip problem. This is a 2006 and I do not think the 2005 Gransports had this problem. Maybe it is Maserati trying to solve a cold driveability issue. Just a guess. All in all I think the F1 on the Stradale is perfect. Downshifting while entering a corner is a thing of beauty.
In the over 4000 miles I have driven my F1 there is not a trace of slippage in the gear exchange. In fact, I had a Porsche TT with a lightweight flywheel, a heavy-duty clutch, and a B&M short shifter. The F1 slams into gears faster and tighter. Moreover, we are talking shifts at 8000+ RPMs from 1st to 2nd to 3rd. It may not have the feel and involvement of a six speed but the shift technology they put in these 430s is truly remarkable.
i had clutch replaced at 10k miles and mine was one of longer lasted units. first dealer checked with sd2 and it showed 80percent clutch life. when they checked it under the car it was time to replace even sd2 showed ok. i put 3k miles on new clutch and sold the car and it had very little use. it really depends on your driving style. i heard some lasted long as 30k miles. drive it like manual car and it will last longer.
Just some thoughts worth chewing on..... Let's say a car (hypothetical) is cruising along at 40mph, in 3rd gear the rpm's are at 4,200 At that moment the wheels are turning at a certain rate (tire diameter vs speed of car)....this is a constant relative to the speed of the car. Additionally the wheels are turning a differential which in turn feeds into a axle and that ends at one side of the clutch. At 40 mph these components are always turning at the same rate. In this case the engine is turning 4,200 rpm and we're in 3rd gear. If we shift to 4th the rpms will drop to (per se) to 3,100 rpm's, if we shift down to 2nd the rpms would run up to 5,500 rpm's. The point being, the engine rpm's may vary, but the tires & backside of the clutch are constant relative to the speed of the car. Given these numbers (2nd gear 5,500 rpm, 3rd gear 4,200 rpm and 4th gear 3,100 rpm)......the perfectly smooth shift would work something like this: In 3rd gear, rpm's at 4,200.....depress clutch & lay-off gas peddle, shift into 4th.....engine rpm's begin to fall...just as the rpm's drift down towards 3,100 the clutch is released and the transition is flawless and seemingly undetected to the driver (sound of engine not withstanding). In this case there is virtually no wear to the clutch plates: the back side of the clutch is turning at the near same rate as the front side of the clutch...clutch wear: ZERO It stands to reason that if you let the clutch out any sooner or later then 3,100....the difference in revolutions must be absorbed by the clutch. Feathering the clutch, slipping the clutch.....it's just like riding the brakes: more wear & tear. The clutch on my old Jeep Cherokee went 138,000 for me. It's all about minimizing slippage and smooth transitions. In sport mode, the clutch is just dumped...the difference in rpm's is partially absorbed into wear on the clutch, but more so is shoved into the car and results in a jerky ride. No particular point, just stuff to think about. It's very encouraging to hear of an F1 360 that went 30k on it's clutch....some local salesman was trying to suggest they go as little as 7k (which I don't believe). I think 15k-20k is more likely typical. I've also heard that in reverse the clutch never fully engages? At least that was the way the 355 was designed.
as someone else has already pointed out, the BIGGEST difference is, F1 tends to ride the clucth alot more a human would in stop and go or slow moving condition. why? simple. a human knows when he/she is sloweing the car down but not to a stop so no need to push in the clutch. the computer in F1 does not know that, if you slow the car down and speed drops, it will push in the clucth to anticipate a full stop, and in slow moving condition, it will constantly ride the clutch. if a F1 car is never in traffic, i do not see it having much shortened life span compared to a manual. but in real world driving, especially cities like NY or LA, F1 will wear faster. i have a '04 CS with 13500 miles, no prob with clutch yet. i am in traffic fairly alot. i just try to move at a pace above 2000rpm in 1st so clutch is fully disengaged.
I believe the reason some F1 clutches wear out so quickly, is that they are driven like automatics, especially in traffic, and reversing. The F1 gearbox controlled by it's computer, is designed to slip continually when driving slowly and reversing. So if you have to reverse down a long driveway, or do lots of slow manouvering to get out of a garage, or just crawling along in peak hour traffic, the clutch is designed to slip the whole time to help smoothness, causing a very high clutch plate wear rate. Driving an auto in slow stop start traffic often is achieved by leaving the accelerator alone, and just using the brake. If you were driving in the same traffic with a manual stick shift, you would release the clutch to get the car started, and then push the clutch in and roll, repeating this process as required, but definately not slipping the clutch the whole way. Manouvering a manual in a garage or reversing is also achieved by engaging or slipping the clutch for only a short time, then pushing it in and rolling for a while. I believe that F1 clutch life can be extended by driving it like a manual, which does require a bit more work. In peak hour traffic and the other situations that I mentioned, I suggest move the car off, and then pull on both paddles to select neutral, and roll. Re-engage first gear as required, and repeat the process. In the above situations, there is bound to be more wear on the clutch, and there are fewer choices. When speed is not so restricted, it is better not to baby the gearbox, but accelerate moderatelly hard, to ensure a rapid gearchange, and quick engagement of the clutch.
Very interesting responses. Steve R's comment is correct clutch wear is not much in the situation he described. It seems that the major problem is going to be when one drives a F1 in stop and go traffic. That is when the clutch wear will be the highest. As many have said the F1 is not an automatic. So my question is for those of you that are finding higher clutch wear. Are you doing a lot of stop and go rush hour traffic? Thank you.
As you said, I believe it has to do with a lot of stop and go driving. City driving where you are always starting the car from a stop. I had a 2001 Modena with F1 and had to have the clutch changed at 8K miles. I never used the car in automatic and drove mostly in the Sport Mode. I think the wear of the clutch is dependent upon how many times you have to pull away from a stop. This is, of course, not a scientific opinion. But I can't help but wonder the effect of the clutch slipping to get the car going in first gear. I have a six speed Spider with 13K and the clutch will be good for another 15 to 16K. I think the fact that you can control the amount of slip in first gear has a whole lot to do with its life span.
Don't worry -- it is too good to be true. The clutch wear figure reported by the SD2/SD3 is a rough estimate at best -- you can plug it in on two different days it will show 0.63% and 12.5% respectively....it's best used as a guide rather than as an exact figure (i.e. at 0.63%, you can rest assured your clutch is "good". At 78%, you can be pretty sure it's "bad"). I've had the computer report 25% one day and have the clutch blown completely two days later... nlh
The CS standard mode operates like a regular 360 in sport mode. When the CS is in Race mode it it twice as fast. The CS has a de-tuned Enzo F1 System. I drive a 2003 360 Spider with 4,000 miles this weekend and could not believe how bad the F-1 system was. Mike
Mike, Thanks for that help which confirms what I suspected was the Spot Mode similarity to CS programming. Has anyone been able to update the 360 the CS F1 standard via re-mapping the control unit? Donie
The amount the clutch slips has EVERYTHING to do with it's lifespan. A faster shift makes the car jerk, what the car doesn't absorb in the rough transition, the clutch plates eat-up. Let me shiift gears (with minimal slippage) for a moment: While it's all fun & good to discuss clutch life, slippage, longevity and wear & tear.....it just doesn't matter. Nobody owns a Ferrari for practical purposes, value or low cost maintenance. Plan on 12,000 miles per clutch and just roll with the punches. It's the price you pay to dance with spaghetti....but hey: that's one a-spicy meatball!
