Exhaust manifold nuts | FerrariChat

Exhaust manifold nuts

Discussion in '308/328' started by kiwiokie, Dec 11, 2022.

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  1. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3
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    I bought new copper flanged nuts for the exhaust manifold and the first nut got really tight after just a few threads. As I backed it off it started pulling the stud rather than the nut. I read that the inner diameter is elliptical shaped, not round, to provide a locking effect. Are these the correct nuts for the application and you just have to live with the studs backing out if you ever have to remove?


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  2. rjlloyd

    rjlloyd Formula Junior

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    Yes they look like the correct nuts. When installing the studs into the head, you can “double nut” them to ensure they’re seated all the way in and tight, could always add a little locktite as well if needed.


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  3. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Veteran
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    I have used blue loctite on the studs which helps keep the stud in the head when you have to move the nut.
     
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  4. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Pinch nuts are best for exhaust studs, risk is pullout when removing. The pinch nut stays put thru the thermal and vibration cycles.
    That said, I prefer the solid copper ones vs plated.
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 Steve Magnusson, Dec 11, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2022
    I'd say that that is a very heavy-duty lock nut with that much circular distortion over the whole length of the thread. IME, the "stock" F exhaust nuts of that era are the slotted type (where, after threading, they cut a slot near the top and then bend the thin part down which gets flexed back up when put on the stud to provides the drag for locking) like these examples:
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    Doesn't need as much torque as your "fully distorted oval" nuts to install or remove. Not saying that those won't work, but they have a much greater chance of having the stud come out during removal (or strip the threads in the cyl head during installation), and can make it hard to determine how much of the applied torque is tightening the nut and how much is used up in the thread friction. Did they come from Maranello Classic Parts or some other F part supplier?
     
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  6. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3
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    These are the standard M8 exhaust nuts from belmetric. My engine came mostly stripped down when I bought the car but the belmetric nuts looked the same as the used nuts in the bag of engine fasteners that came with the car. The amount of torque needed to install them was surprising. At first I thought it was cross-threaded.


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  7. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Solid copper nuts won't cross thread the stud. That's another reason to prefer them.
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #8 Steve Magnusson, Dec 11, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2022
    Belmetric also sells the "slit" style:
    https://belmetric.com/slit-lock-nut-copper-plated-steel-exhaust-din-14441/

    What year/model F do you have (update your profile)? Not sure if they ever changed the style of exhaust flange nut over the run of 308, but if you want something with less prevailing torque to install those would be an option. You might check the SPC figure for your year/model F to see if the picture shows just a flanged nut or a washer with an unflanged nut. There are also other styles that have a smaller localized distortion in the threads (so need less torque), but your photo looks like the majority, or all, of the threads are deformed "oval".
     
  9. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3
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    I have a ‘75 308GT4. Trying to complete last punch list before installing engine. Had the car 6 years and never driven it!


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  10. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    I've used these and they are great. 12mm. Same nuts on a VW bug. Cheap from EMPI
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    While a flanged, distorted lock nut would be perfectly OK in that location (if not too heavy duty/friction), your SPC shows a spring split lock washer and a split lock nut were used originally there (items 22 and 23):

    https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/diagram/ferrari/308-gt4-dino-1976/005-cylinder-head-(right)

    Don't you need to move "308GT4" in your Profile from "Wanted Cars" to "Personal Ferraris"? ;)
     
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  12. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3
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    Thanks Steve! Much to my embarrassment I had not even checked the parts book. I found copper nuts in the bag of hardware taken off the car and just assumed they were the correct nuts.

    On a related note the exhaust stud has two dimensions either side of the central bulge, one 15mm the other 16mm. I have seen references to installing the longest end into the cylinder head to get the most threads but see that on some holes the stud bottoms out without the central bulge reaching the flange surface which makes me worry it could cross thread when tightening. Is there a recommended way of installing these exhaust studs?

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  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    That's a small distinction in length difference, and an Engineer expecting the Assembler to tell such a small difference (and never get it backwards) would be a bit of a mistake IMO (and a reasonable tolerance of the thread length on each side of a stud bulge is probably at least +/- 1mm -- so I'd guess that each side was nominally intended to be the same length and the difference that you have is just the manufacturing tolerance). The SPC presently shows a much more asymmetric stud (but it's been superceded so might have been more like what you have originally):

    https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/part/ferrari/13516824

    where it has to be the short end going into the cyl head -- as the short end looks too short to accept the header flange, the washer, and a (tallish) locknut.
     
  14. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3
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    Thank you Steve. Very much appreciated. Had this car 8 years and now only a few weeks away from engine install so am second guessing everything I have done!


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  15. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3
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    Just for grins I installed a stud in each direction and measured the stud available to the manifold nut and it was 2mm longer with the short end of the stud in the head.


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  16. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Are you doing that by gently just using your fingers or by firmly double-nutting them in? (The tapped blind hole in the cylinder head can have some taper in the last few threads.)
     
  17. kiwiokie

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    Started stud by hand then I double nutted with a closed end wrench holding the wrench at the nut end so I could feel when the stud was snug but not applying too much torque. Hope that was right approach? Used blue loctite as was suggested earlier in this thread.


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  18. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3
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    Holes were cleaned first with carb cleaner and hole brush, then q-tip, then new M8 bolt threaded with fingers


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  19. smg2

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    There's a class or fit difference for internal thread and the stud. I'm not recalling off the top of my head what it is at the moment but it's different then the threading for the nut end. So there are studs that are threaded slightly different on each end, it's kinda obvious when holding them, the end that threads into the block/material is 'fatter' and the nuts have more resistance when threaded.
    Not all replacement aftermarket hardware is like that though.
     
  20. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3
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    #20 kiwiokie, Jan 3, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2023
    I would never have guessed there was so much involved in just exhaust studs!!!

    I will be glad when this engine is done. It has given me a deep appreciation for those that do this everyday. I have learned a lot but it has probably taken years off my life!


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  21. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    "I would never have guessed there was so much involved in just exhaust studs!!!"

    Me neither! In all the years of engine work I've done the only concern I ever had about exhaust manifold nuts/studs is that they were right size! Never had a "plain ol'" nut or stud loosen on an exhaust fitting.
     
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  22. ferrariowner

    ferrariowner Formula 3

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    Nut and bolt type and materials are also a concern for aircraft exhaust as well.
     
  23. Sergio Tavares

    Sergio Tavares Formula 3

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    DinoPoint.it sells the brass one so will not come off
     

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