Euro car dying at deceleration, why? | FerrariChat

Euro car dying at deceleration, why?

Discussion in '308/328' started by yelcab, Jul 5, 2020.

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  1. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    So a euro car (no cat, no ICV, no throttle position switch, no O2 sensor) is dying on deceleration. Is it too lean or too rich?
     
  2. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    Do you mean completely dying, shutting off - like when coming to a hard stop?
     
  3. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    idle drops and sometimes stalls
     
  4. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    Having that (new) problem occasionally, also. I havent tracked down the cause yet.
     
  5. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    Was it idling really rough then engine died?
     
  6. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    The car runs well when warmed up. Its only glitch is when you remove throttle abruptly (like when you coming to a stop from a medium to high speed run) the idle drops to lower than 1,000 RPM and sometimes it would recover to settle at 1,000 RPM or sometimes it would stall altogether.

    What I am trying to understand is the science behind the stalling in an CIS system. Is it stalling because the sudden removal of high vacuum causes the engine to run too lean and it dies? Is it because the sudden removal of high vacuum causes the engine to run too rich and it dies? I read through the entire CIS document produced by Ferrari and they did not say what causes the engine to stall under deceleration.

    Knowing the causes would inform me to adjust the mixture screw left or right to compensate for the lift throttle condition.
     
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  7. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    It’s also possible that you could have some kind of vacuum leak somewhere but if not, then maybe yes the fuel/air mixture might fix the problem.
     
  8. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
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    Throw some redex in the fuel tank, make sure tank is less than 1/4 full. My injection mondial did this coming up to halt signs.
     
  9. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
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    Just speculation but I wouldn't expect it to be a rich/lean condone per se. There must be some sort of "control" in the KJet system that addresses throttle lift-off. In the old days carburetors typically had 'dashpots' which automatically slowed the throttle closing when you abruptly took your foot off the gas, preventing it from stalling under those conditions. Seems like analog FI systems like the KJet would have to have some sort of similar "device" or controller that serves the same function though I don't know enough about the Kjet to know how that is done.
     
  10. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

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    #10 308 milano, Jul 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
    My 96 Porsche 993 Did this at one point. Been so long ago, Can’t remember what the issue was but it wasn’t lean/rich mixture with it. Vaguely remember relay ? or Signal?
    Come off the interstate and start to upshft as I approached the stoplight, would just quit ,turn the key and it would immediately fire right back up and run fine.
     
  11. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    For a US system, the device is the throttle position sensor, which does not exist on the Euro model.
    For earlier Euro models, the device is the Deceleration valve, which Ferrari removed from their system for the last of the Euro model.
    So, for the very last of the Euro CIS model, where is that magic? In the Ferrari document, they described the operation of the US model as "the ECU gets the combination of the signals from the Throttle Closed signal from the TPS and it adjusts the mixture to compensate" but the document does not say what the adjustment is "richen" or "leans" the mixture out.
     
  12. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    I would check the throttle body to see if it's clean. Clogged sputtering injector(s), Check mixture. Stall could be either rich or lean condition.

    Then go to the basics: Fuel pressues correct. Ignition working correctly; plugs, wires, extenders, cap, rotor all good.
     
  13. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Sure you are not mixing the "euro" engine (That did not change for its whole production line, as far as I know) and the "swiss engine", appeared in 1987, which has catalysator and KE-3 jet? (there are three engine variants for the 328: euro engine (no cat); US engine (catalysed), engine type F-105/040 and swiss engine, catalysed, KE-3, engine type F-105/046, appeared mid 1987)

    Rgds
     
  14. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Fuel pressures ARE correct. Ignition working correctly; plugs, wires, extenders, caps, rotors ARE all good. It starts and runs very well, with only one glitch. There is no Oxygen sensor so I cannot hook up an oscilloscope to adjust the mixture to 50% duty cycle. I have a very inexpensive CO meter and do not trust its measurement explicitly.

    "Stall could either be rich or lean" I could always tweak the mixture screw 1/8 turn and drive it 30 minutes but ... I really want to understand the science behind this.
     
  15. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    This is a 1984 model so it is not a swiss engine type F105 appearing in mid-1987.
     
  16. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Fine, probably 1985, as there was no 1984 3,2 litre engine.
    What I was trying to say was rather: is your litterature corresponding to that engine model? I had in mind that the only extensive documentation produced about the K-Jet by Ferrari was only for the KE-Jet, i.e, for the "046" engine, as far as I know (?)

    Rgds
     
  17. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Correct, that is the only document I have.
     
  18. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Since it's in the US, just how "euro" is it? Never modified at all, modified to US legal, modified to US legal and then remodified back, etc.?

    The closest thing to a euro 308QV is a 1983 US version 308QV, but they have a significant ignition system map difference (see pages D4 and D5 in the 281/83 Modial8/QV WSM):

    Euro 308QV = K-Jet without Lambda, no throttle microswitch, no VLV, Digiplex MED803A (that has a lot of advance at low RPM)

    1983 US 308QV = K-Jet without Lambda, no throttle microswitch, has VLV, Digiplex 805A (that is much more retarded at low RPM)

    What Digiplex units are on it? You might also just put a timing light on cyl #1 and #5 to confirm the warm idle timing with the Digiplex vacuum line removed (14 deg BTDC for MED 803A and 6 deg BTDC for MED 805A) and with the vacuum line connected (10 deg BTDC for MED 803A and 3 deg ATDC for MED 805A) just to ensure each vacuum LVDT on each Digiplex is quasi-working (i.e., with the vacuum line connected the warm idle RPM is X; with the vacuum line removed, the RPM increases above X).
     
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  19. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Ah, I was just wondering how long we would have to wait until the sorcerer of these matters would appear...I shall remain silent now.

    Rgds
     
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  20. Hotzos

    Hotzos Formula 3
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    When mine did this, it was the vacuum hose just that runs into the plenum. It was cracked.
     
  21. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    It is an F106AS/Q
    I was told it is for Italian Market.
    I was federalized, and now being un-federalized as much as possible.
    There is an after market muffler and no Cat converter or O2 sensor so I am not sure what came originally.
    There currently is no throttle position switch (that goes click) and probably never was
    There is an AAV under the coolant tank.
    There is no deceleration valve or plumbing for a Decel valve of any kind.

    I am going to do a smoke test now to see if there is any vacuum leaks...
     
  22. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    What Digiplex ignition ECUs are installed?
     
  23. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    803A is the ignition module
     
  24. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    A slight vacuum leak at the elbow before the throttle housing, and was fixed. No leaks anywhere else.
     
  25. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Then that seems the correct configuration for a euro 308QV (K-Jet without Lambda, no throttle microswitch, no VLV, Digiplex MED803A) so you must have some other issue. If you unplug the vacuum line from each MED 803A (one at a time) does the warm idle speed increase and the timing for that bank advance?
     

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