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Euro 7 emissions equal death of V12 ??

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by F2003-GA, Apr 30, 2019.

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  2. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Article from German car mag

    Car manufacturers smell the morning air
    On April 8, 2021, the EU group of experts called the "Advisory Group on Vehicle Emission Standards" (AGVES) presented its recommendations for the new Euro 7 emissions standard. The auto lobby is now celebrating the new, more industry-friendly paper. "The plans presented today for the new Euro 7 standard for cars show that the EU Commission has accepted the limits of what is technically feasible and has said goodbye to unattainable goals," explains VDA President Hildegard Müller. The plans previously submitted to the EU Commission were not technically feasible. This was explicitly confirmed in today's AGVES meeting, said Müller.

    Müller evaluates the new draft as a technically demanding approach: "The new proposals for reducing pollutant emissions are, according to an initial estimate, 5-10 times more severe than for Euro 6. The proposals continue to move at the limit of what is technologically achievable. We must continue to be very careful that the internal combustion engine is not made impossible by Euro 7. On the other hand, the EU Commission confirmed today that this is not their goal. "

    With the plans now presented, however, the last word has by no means been spoken. In fact, the European Commission has not yet decided anything on the Euro 7 standard

    The real explosive of the Euro 7 proposals is not in the limit values, but in the framework conditions of the tests, which in the form discussed go strongly in the direction of a ban on incinerators. Even if a more moderate variant prevails in the end, which can just about be created, it will cost car buyers a lot of money - money that can be better invested, for example in a usable electrical infrastructure. After all, the CO2 regulations that are already in place are vigorously promoting electric cars. Selling diesel and gasoline engines will be increasingly difficult over the next few years, and there shouldn't be a car manufacturer who hasn't dealt internally with the end of the combustion engine for a long time. A second, even faster, death sentence is therefore unnecessary.

    The real problem, however, would remain. It's the existing vehicles. And for particulate matter even the electric cars. In this respect, it would make more sense to convert the entire transport system to fewer CO2 emissions (better public transport, cycle paths, alternative means of transport) than to focus on minimizing air pollutants, which is automatically included in most measures to reduce CO2
     
  3. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    My biggest complaint about E85 is degradation effects. That alone makes me an E85 hater..
     
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  4. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    FIFY
     
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  5. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    E85 is awful stuff. I have a Rolls Phantom in the shop with 2 completely non functional high pressure pumps due to the e85 eating the rubber vacuum diaphragms that are built inside them.
     
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  7. Metastable

    Metastable Formula Junior

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    Ya E85 is not for every country. We are not ready for it..... Brazil was a different story..... they began with ethanol only vehicles.....then over the years they added flex engines.
     
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  8. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    Caution...there is yet no Euro 7 regulation, it does not yet exist, until it does we will not know for certain what it will do...
     
  9. Doc_Dent

    Doc_Dent Karting

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    Well, no definite official statement regarding NA V12s so far.
    It would be interesting to see what would be under the hood of the successor of 812.
    If NA V12, that would be great news for the old biased V12 fans of us, and around 5-6 years more of raw "12 tuned " melodies.
    If not, I guess the market of 812+ previous V12s would sky rocket in a way as the the 458 picked up after confirmation of being last NA V8.
     
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  11. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    and, maybe a bit more than that if confirmed the 812 replacement is a V8 ...(i.e. no more V12 in regular production, I know the FUV is rumored to maybe have a V12, but it is a lot closer to production than the 812 replacement which apparently has no mules yet)...or there is no 812 replacement at all, wouldn't that be something?
     
  12. Doc_Dent

    Doc_Dent Karting

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    That is a thought worth to chew on for a while,,,
    I wish not ofcourse :)
     
  13. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    well, some thinking here:

    The 812GTS will likely be out of production after model year 2022 (i.e. by Summer 2022 - except for a few that take longer to complete such as tailor made). You would think the 812 replacement would be revealed prior to then, perhaps as late as February/March 2022. We know there is no planned reveal this year, Ferrari has indicated 3 model announcements for this calendar year (812VS, 812VSA and LBv6Turbo+Hybrid are presumed to be those 3).

    So, time will tell, but where are the mules? Maybe they exist and we just don't realize it.

    But, if no 812 replacement reveal by April 2022 (year from now) you have to wonder what the plan will be...

    Of course, the 812GTS (and 812VS/VSA) may continue on into model year 2023.

    Another thought, Euro 7 regulations are due to be released by end of this year and those will set the standards starting in calendar year 2025 and if they are disadvantageous to V12's survival, look for there to be something other than a V12 in the 812 replacement.

    This is a difficult time for Ferrari (and Lamborghini) to be planning new V12 engines. If they will be locked out of the EU market in less than 4 years, they will not recoupe their expenses so they will do without V12s, at least for the EU market. So, I believe there is a great hesitation and if Ferrari wants to plan on an 812 replacement by 2023, it is likely they either use the same engine as now (which actually seems unlikely) or they go with a 4L V8. But, maybe they are just waiting and maybe "playing around" with V12 ideas for now without getting too serious until the Euro 7 roadmap is firm.

    But, there is the next Ferrari hypercar, thought to be revealed within the next 2 years, it quite likely will feature a V12, but, what will it be? If a downsized block+hybrid, maybe that is the engine for the 812 replacement, maybe...

    so many possibilities... ;)
     
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  14. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    IMO The V12 will survive Euro 7 maybe with capacitators for electrification assistance in order to meet the regs
     
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  15. Metastable

    Metastable Formula Junior

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    Twin V6s.... :D
     
  16. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    The "capacitor" situation is patented by Lamborghini and MIT, so, that's unlikely.
    https://www.designnews.com/batteryenergy-storage/lamborghini-and-mit-double-energy-density-super-capacitors

    Plus, the capacitor is boost only, does not provide power for EV-only driving at all. The capacitor is, by design (as any capacitor is), to quickly charge and, more importantly, quickly discharge.

    And, if Ferrari were pursuing such, there would probably be a patent filed by now.
     
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