Ethiopian 737-8 MAX down. No survivors. | Page 4 | FerrariChat

Ethiopian 737-8 MAX down. No survivors.

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by RWatters, Mar 10, 2019.

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  1. KKSBA

    KKSBA F1 World Champ
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    Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw
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    Pilots repeatedly voiced safety concerns about the Boeing 737 Max 8 to federal authorities, with one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient" several months before Sunday's Ethiopian Air crash that killed 157 people, an investigation by The Dallas Morning News found.

    The News found at least five complaints about the Boeing model in a federal database where pilots can voluntarily report about aviation incidents without fear of repercussions.

    The complaints are about the safety mechanism cited in preliminary reportsabout an October plane crash in Indonesia that killed 189.

    The disclosures found by The News reference problems during Boeing 737 Max 8 flights with an autopilot system, and they all occurred while trying to gain altitude during takeoff — many mentioned the plane turning nose down suddenly. While records show these flights occurred during October and November, the information about which airlines the pilots were flying for is redacted from the database.

    Records show that a captain who flies the Max 8 complained in November that it was "unconscionable" that the company and federal authorities allowed pilots to fly the planes without adequate training or fully disclosing information about how its systems were different from previous 737 models.

    The captain's complaint was logged after the FAA released an emergency airworthiness directive about the Boeing 737 Max 8 in response to the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia.

    An FAA spokesman said the reports found by The News were filed directly to NASA, which serves as a neutral third party for reporting purposes.

    Tuesday evening, the agency issued a statement from Acting Administrator Daniel K. Elwell, saying that it "continues to review extensively all available data and aggregate safety performance from operators and pilots of the Boeing 737 MAX."

    "Thus far, our review shows no systemic performance issues and provides no basis to order grounding the aircraft. Nor have other civil aviation authorities provided data to us that would warrant action," Elwell said in the statement.

    A federal audit in 2014 said that the FAA does not collect and analyze its voluntary disclosure reporting in a way that would effectively identify national safety risks.

    U.S. regulators are mandating that Boeing upgrade the plane's software by April but have so far declined to ground the planes. China, Australia and the European Union have grounded the 737 Max 8, leaving the U.S. and Canada as the only two countries flying a substantial number of the aircraft.

    Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas, who leads a Senate subcommittee overseeing aviation, said in a statement Tuesday that U.S. authorities should ground the planes.

    "Further investigation may reveal that mechanical issues were not the cause, but until that time, our first priority must be the safety of the flying public," Cruz said.

    At least 18 carriers — including American Airlines and Southwest Airlines, the two largest U.S. carriers flying the 737 Max 8 — have also declined to ground planes, saying they are confident in the safety and "airworthiness" of their fleets. American and Southwest have 24 and 34 of the aircraft in their fleets, respectively.

    "The United States should be leading the world in aviation safety," said John Samuelsen, the president of a union representing transport workers that called Tuesday for the planes to be grounded. "And yet, because of the lust for profit in the American aviation, we're still flying planes that dozens of other countries and airlines have now said need to be grounded."

    The fifth complaint from the captain who called into question the 737 Max 8's flight manual ended: "The fact that this airplane requires such jury rigging to fly is a red flag. Now we know the systems employed are error-prone — even if the pilots aren't sure what those systems are, what redundancies are in place and failure modes. I am left to wonder: what else don't I know?"
     
  2. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Thank you!
     
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  3. JLF

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    Yea that’s a good point. But he/she would be worthless. Basically all they could do is read a checklist and pull the gear. It would be pretty much a single pilot operation.
     
  4. Ferrari 308 GTB

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    I would imagine Boeing will have to now consider connecting both of the AOA outputs to the MCAS ,then if just one is faulty nothing should happen.

    Southwest and American are ordering or retrofitting AOA indications into both Pilots PFD's .So then easy to compare and help to resolve disagreements.Its around $60 K per aircraft i believe.

    No doubt their Pilots have a proper understanding and have had training in the sim already.So they see no 'problem'.

    Boeing response is similar to when they had big problems with the rudder ,and kept their heads buried in the sand.

    FAA really should step in as a precaution at least until the FDR/CVR have been analysed.They are now playing Russian roulette,with passengers lives at stake.
     
  5. Jeff Kennedy

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    From MRO-Network.com:

    March 10 Ethiopian accident to sway its thinking. There is little evidence to go on, as readouts of the digital flight data and cockpit voice recorders was still in process.

    "Following the accident of an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing Model 737-8 airplane on March 10, 2019, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) as the accredited representative, and the FAA as Technical Advisors, are supporting the Ethiopian Accident Investigation Bureau," FAA said in a March 11 Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community. "The FAA has dispatched personnel to support the investigative authorities in determining the circumstances of this event. All data will be closely examined during this investigation, and the FAA will take appropriate action if the data indicates the need to do so."

    FAA's notification emphasized actions taken after JT610, which went down in the Java Sea shortly after takeoff as its crew battled with, among other issues, erroneous data from angle-of-attack (AOA) sensors. Among them: Boeing's plans to modify the 737 MAX FCS, which incorporates MCAS.

    MCAS provides automatic nose-down inputs to assist pilots in certain manual, flaps-up flying scenarios, "especially at slow airspeeds and high AOA," Boeing explained in an operators' bulletin issued last November. The MAX’s larger CFM Leap-1B engines create more lift at high angles of attack than the CFM56-7B used on the 737 Next Generation. MCAS was added as a certification requirement to help mitigate this.

    MCAS is fed by a single AOA sensor—something that is expected to change as part of Boeing's update. Erroneous data can trigger it, and pilots are supposed to follow a memorized checklist to override it. But the system's reaction in certain error modes may be confusing pilots, and its being looked at in the JT610 investigation.

    "In the event of erroneous AOA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds," Boeing explained to operators in a bulletin issued last November, following the JT610 accident. "The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 sec. after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated."

    Among the theories being considered by JT610 investigators: the aircraft's crew did not fully understand what was happening to its aircraft, and attempted to counteract MCAS with the trim switches, instead of deactivating it with a cutout switch.

    Operators and regulators around the world, concerned that MCAS is not well enough understood and is too susceptible to faulty sensor data, have taken the extraordinary step of grounding MAX aircraft without direct evidence of a safety issue. FAA has so far relied on that lack of evidence to justify its decision to keep them flying.

    Even if MCAS is considered too risky to be used in service, regulators have at least one option beyond grounding aircraft, a former regulatory official told Aviation Daily. "If MCAS is the problem, disconnect it," the official said. "Establish revised operational limitations that reflect MCAS's unavailability, such as not flying below certain airspeeds, and mandate them until the issue is resolved. There's no need to ground the aircraft"
     
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  6. Jeff Kennedy

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    All pilots do sim training. For the US operations it would be every 6 months and hopefully even in the 3rd world it is the same.

    As for the rudder issue you mention, you make it sound like it was a completely apparent situation. I had a long conversation with the Boeing Chief Test Pilot for the 737NG about this. He was adamantly against there having been a hard over situation and argued against that the way that the FAA did the testing to "prove" how it had to have been a hard over. He decried the loss of any amount of potential control that he, as pilot in command, might some day need.

    As for the second AOA, this will be interesting to see how they are integrated into the aircraft system. The 737 has a single ADIRU so there is not the ability to have a second independent input system. This architecture solution goes back to the original 737 concept of being a for domestic short haul operations. It is an architecture weakness of the aircraft. For anyone that is familial with the BBJ, this is the reason that the 3rd FMS is software and not a real box.
     
  7. JLF

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    The 737NGs and MAX have 2 ADIRUs.
     
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  8. Ferrari 308 GTB

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    FDR/CVR on the way to 'Europe' probably London.
     
  9. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    The ADIRU architecture was a major discussion point for the BBJ Owner/Operator Conference in 1999 and 2000. We wanted triple FMS but as it was explained by Boeing that would not work because there was not a way for independent inputs. During the Boeing discussion another concern became apparent - a need for ADIRUs in the spare parts pool because no operator wanted to carry a six figure part on their own shelf when a failure would ground the aircraft.

    The BBJ Office announced at the 2000 Conference the development of Nav Link to solve the underlying architecture problem. This was being accepted by the FAA as a 3rd FMS although it was a software creation.

    I can't say if in the later years Boeing re-did the cockpit architecture.
     
  10. Jeff Kennedy

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    Latest on Aviation Week's daily news feed:

    Updated 0900 UTC, Mar. 13, 2019

    Airlines and regulators in several more Asia-Pacific nations have suspended operations of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft following the Ethiopian Airlines crash on March 10.

    The latest countries affected by suspensions are Fiji, Hong Kong, India, New Zealand, South Korea and Thailand. Already on this list are other countries in the region including Australia, China, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore.

    India is a particularly significant addition to the list of countries temporarily halting MAX operations, as it has two domestic airlines with these aircraft in their fleets. SpiceJet has 13 737-8s, and Jet Airways has five. However, Jet’s were believed to be already grounded due to lease payment defaults.

    India’s Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) grounded the 737 MAX aircraft on March 13. It also stated that no MAX aircraft would be allowed to transit Indian airspace after 4p.m local time (10.30 a.m. UTC). The deadline is intended to allow aircraft to be positioned at maintenance facilities and for international flights to reach their destinations, the DGCA said.

    South Korea’s Eastar Jet is the only operator of 737 MAX aircraft in that country. The airline on March 12 agreed to suspend operations of its two 737-8s after consultation with South Korea’s Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport (MOLIT). The suspension is effective from March 13. MOLIT had previously asked the carrier to conduct extra inspections and monitoring on MAX aircraft.

    Hong Kong’s Civil Aviation Department said on March 13 that all 737 MAX operations “into, out of and over” its territory will be prohibited from 6p.m. local time. Two airlines fly 737 MAX aircraft into Hong Kong – SpiceJet and Russia’s Globus Airlines. Both carriers have told CAD they will continue service into Hong Kong with other aircraft types.

    The Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand (CAAT) announced it would suspend the operations of the three 737-9s operated by LCC Thai Lion Air. The suspension will begin from midnight on March 13 to allow the aircraft to be positioned in the right airport, and will run through March 20. Most other aviation authorities have not set end dates for their suspensions.

    Fiji Airways and Fiji’s Civil Aviation Authority of Fiji (CAAF) have decided to temporarily ground the airline’s two 737-8s “until more information is known” about the cause of the Ethiopian Airlines crash, according to a joint statement. Fiji Airways began operating 737-8s in December 2018.

    The wording of the joint statement indicates that the airline and CAAF have taken this action reluctantly. Fiji Airways and CAAF stressed they “continue to have full confidence in the airworthiness of the Boeing 737 MAX.” The aircraft has “proven to be reliable and efficient, and continuous flight data monitoring has not identified any issues that would give rise to a cause for concern.”

    Despite this, the temporary grounding was decided “out of deference to the position taken by [other] regulators in our region, and in response to the concerns expressed by the general public.” The decision will be reviewed in light of any new information, the statement said.

    Fiji Airways operates its 737-8 to Australia and New Zealand, and both these countries have suspended all MAX operations even though no airlines based there have MAX aircraft in their fleets. Fiji Airways is the only carrier flying 737 MAXs to New Zealand, and the country’s Civil Aviation Authority issued the suspension on March 13 after taking into consideration “the level of uncertainty regarding the cause of the recent Ethiopian Airlines accident plus [CAA’s] review of the aircraft design.”



    Updated 19:05 UTC, Mar. 12, 2019

    The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) decided Mar. 12 to suspend all Boeing 737 MAX flight operations in Europe until further notice.

    EASA said in a statement that it has issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD) mandating the suspension “as a precautionary measure” and “following the tragic accident of Ethiopian Airlines flight ET302.” The agency also issued a safety directive suspending all 737 MAX operations by non-European airlines into and out of the region. Both decisions became effective at 19:00 UTC Mar. 12.

    The agency said it is “continuously analyzing the data as it becomes available. The accident investigation is currently ongoing, and it is too early to draw any conclusions as to the cause of the accident.” EASA was referring to the Mar. 10 crash of Ethiopian Airlines flight 302 near Addis Ababa in which all 157 on board were killed. The cockpit voice and flight data recorders have been recovered from the crash site, but data analysis is still pending.

    On Oct. 29, 2018, a Lion Air 737 MAX 8 crashed off the Indonesian coast. Early investigation results appear to show the maneuvering characteristics augmentation system (MCAS), introduced on the MAX, has played a role in the chain of events.

    The EASA decision was preceded by individual European Union member states which decided earlier on Mar. 12 to ban 737 MAX operations. The UK went first, followed by Germany and France. Industry sources report serious behind-the-scenes disputes about the unilateral decision by the UK, which appears to have triggered reaction by other countries. Several more followed, including Ireland, Austria and Switzerland.

    EASA and FAA typically coordinate action closely, but differ in their reaction to the two Boeing accidents.

    In the UK, "the UK Civil Aviation Authority [CAA] has been closely monitoring the situation,” CAA said in a statement. “However, as we do not currently have sufficient information from the flight data recorder we have, as a precautionary measure, issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace.” The CAA added that it remained “in close contact with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and industry regulators globally.”

    Germany’s decision was initially announced by Transport Minister Andreas Scheuer in a TV interview and later confirmed by the ministry. German air traffic control provider DFS said the MAX ban in the country was foreseen to last three months. French authority DGAC pointed out that no French airlines operate the MAX, but it would close its airspace for the type as a precaution until further notice.

    Before the European authorities Australia, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and China had banned the aircraft. Individual airlines also decided to stop flying the MAX, including Aeromexico, Gol, Icelandair, Ethiopian and Norwegian.

    As a reaction, Boeing stated that safety was its “number one priority and we have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX. We understand that regulatory agencies and customers have made decisions that they believe are most appropriate for their home markets. We’ll continue to engage with them to ensure they have the information needed to have confidence in operating their fleets. The United States Federal Aviation Administration is not mandating any further action at this time, and based on the information currently available, we do not have any basis to issue new guidance to operators.”

    Airlines were suffering a substantial capacity and network impact as a result of the groundings. In Europe, Norwegian was most affected with a fleet of 18 aircraft that it can no longer operate for now. The airline said it is working on reallocating other aircraft on MAX routes, re-booking passengers and combining flights to minimize the impact. All aircraft that were airborne at the time of the decision were to continue to their destination or home base.

    Turkish Airlines and TUI, which both have twelve MAXs in service, are also large MAX operators in the region.

    FAA stated Mar. 11 that “this investigation has just begun and to date we have not been provided data to draw any conclusions or take any actions.” The authority issued a Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community (CANIC).



    Updated 16:30 UTC, Mar. 12, 2019

    Pressure on FAA and Boeing is mounting after several European countries—including the UK, France, Germany and Ireland—announced Mar. 12 their decision to ban all Boeing 737 MAX flight operations until further notice.

    "The UK Civil Aviation Authority [CAA] has been closely monitoring the situation,” the CAA said in a statement. “However, as we do not currently have sufficient information from the flight data recorder we have, as a precautionary measure, issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace.” The CAA added that it remained “in close contact with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and industry regulators globally.”

    Germany’s decision was initially announced by Transport Minister Andreas Scheuer in a TV interview and later confirmed by the ministry. French authority DGAC pointed out that no French airlines operate the MAX, but it would close its airspace for the type as a precaution until further notice.

    EASA said it was analyzing the situation and was preparing a decision later in the day.

    The moves came in the immediate aftermath of the Mar. 10 crash of Ethiopian Airlines flight 302 in which all 157 people on board were killed. The cockpit voice and flight data recorders have been recovered from the crash site, but data analysis is still pending.

    Before the European authorities, Australia, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and China had banned the aircraft. Individual airlines also decided to stop flying the MAX, including Aeromexico, Aerolineas Argentinas, Gol, Icelandair, Ethiopian and Norwegian.

    As a reaction, Boeing stated Mar. 12 that safety was its “number one priority and we have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX. We understand that regulatory agencies and customers have made decisions that they believe are most appropriate for their home markets. We’ll continue to engage with them to ensure they have the information needed to have confidence in operating their fleets. The United States Federal Aviation Administration is not mandating any further action at this time, and based on the information currently available, we do not have any basis to issue new guidance to operators.”

    Updated 15:00 UTC, Mar. 12, 2019

    Malaysia joined Singapore Mar. 12 as the latest Southeast Asia country to suspend all Boeing 737 MAX 8 flights in and out of the country. “The Civil Aviation Authority of Malaysia with immediate effect is suspending the operations of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft flying to or from Malaysia and transiting in Malaysia until further notice,” Civil Aviation Authority of Malaysia CEO Ahmad Nizar Zolfakar said in a statement.

    None of Malaysia’s airlines flies the narrowbody, however, according to Nikkei Asian Review. Malaysia Economic Affairs Minister Azmin Ali urged the country’s sovereign wealth fund, Khazanah, to "revisit" the agreement to purchase 25 737 MAX 8s for Malaysia Airlines.

    While Indonesia’s Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) ordered the grounding of the country’s 737 MAX 8, it did not prevent other operators from flying in or out of its airspace like restrictions imposed by Singapore, Malaysia and Australia. This restriction meant that LCC Thai Lion Air would not be able to operate its 737 MAX 9 south of Thailand, as the Kingdom’s regulator has not imposed any restrictions at press time.

    Updated 09:30 UTC, Mar. 12, 2019

    Australia has followed other countries by temporarily suspending Boeing 737 MAX flights, with Fiji Airways the main carrier affected by the decision.

    The Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) said the suspension affects all flights into and out of Australia. While no Australian airlines operate MAXs, two foreign carriers – SilkAir and Fiji Airways – fly these aircraft on Australian routes. However, SilkAir’s MAX operations have already been suspended by a similar directive from Singapore authorities.

    CASA said it is “working with Fiji Airways to minimize any disruptions and with regulators in Fiji and Singapore.” The Fijian carrier has two 737 MAX aircraft, and these will be replaced on Australian routes by other aircraft types, according to CASA.

    The suspension is “in the best interests of safety” and was made “in light of the two recent fatal accidents,” said CASA CEO Shane Carmody. “This is a temporary suspension while we wait for more information to review the safety risks of continued operations of the Boeing 737 MAX.”

    CASA will continue to monitor the situation, and the suspension “will be reviewed as relevant safety information becomes available” from Boeing, the FAA, and accident investigators.

    Updated 03:00 UTC, Mar. 12, 2019

    Singapore has become the latest country to temporarily suspend operations involving Boeing 737 MAX variants.

    The Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore (CAAS) said the suspension will take effect from 2 p.m. local time (GMT +8) on March 12. It is halting all operations of the type in and out of Singapore, “in light of two fatal accidents involving Boeing 737 MAX aircraft in less than five months.”

    Currently, Singapore Airline’s (SIA) regional arm Silkair is operating six 737-8s, alongside 737-800s. The day before the CAAS decision, SIA had said it was “closely monitoring the situation” regarding the 737-8s.

    Other airlines flying the 737-8 into Singapore include China Southern Airlines, Garuda Indonesia, Shandong Airlines and Thai Lion Air.

    “CAAS has been in regular contact with SilkAir on its MAX operations since last year, and has been satisfied that it has been taking appropriate measures to comply with the necessary safety requirements,” said the CAAS statement.

    “CAAS will gather more information and review the safety risk associated with the continued operation of the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft into and out of Singapore.” The regulator said it is in close communication with FAA, other regional regulators and Boeing.



    Updated 16:30 UTC, Mar. 11, 2019
    South Africa's Comair is removing its lone Boeing 737-8 MAX-family aircraft from its schedule, adding to a list of airlines that are parking Boeing's newest single-aisle model until more is known about the Mar. 10 crash of an Ethiopian Airlines 737-8.

    "Comair has decided to remove its 737 MAX from its flight schedule, although neither regulatory authorities nor the manufacturer has required it to do so," said Wrenelle Stander, executive director of Comair’s airline division. "While Comair has done extensive preparatory work prior to the introduction of the first 737 MAX into its fleet and remains confident in the inherent safety of the aircraft, it has decided temporarily not to schedule the aircraft while it consults with other operators, Boeing and technical experts."

    Comair took delivery of its first 737-8 on Feb. 27 and put it into service shortly after. The airline is slated to accept another one this month. It has ordered a total of eight 737 MAX aircraft, and will fly them under its British Airways-branded airline operation. The first sub-Saharan operator to take delivery of a 737 MAX-family model, it also operates 737-400s—which are being replaced by the newest models—and 737-800s.

    Investigators are just beginning the probe into the crash of Ethiopian ET302, which went down six minutes into a scheduled flight to Addis Ababa. Of particular interest will be any links to the October 2018 crash of Lion Air Flight 610. In both accidents, nearly-new 737-8 went down minutes after departure, and following distress calls from their flight crews.

    While the investigation has not turned up any definitive links between the two accident sequences, Comair and others have taken the unusual step of grounding the affected fleet until more is understood.



    Updated 15:00 UTC, Mar. 11, 2019

    China, Indonesia, Ethiopian Airlines and Cayman Airways have temporarily grounded the Boeing 737 MAX 8 following a second crash of the type in less than six months.

    An Ethiopian Airlines MAX 8, operating as ET302, crashed Mar. 10 six minutes after departing Bole International Airport in Addis Ababa. All 157 passengers and crew were killed. The flight data recorder and cockpit data recorder have both been recovered, according to Ethiopian Airlines.

    The MAX was already under scrutiny by Indonesian authorities following the crash of Lion Air JT610 on Oct. 29 in which all 189 people were killed. There has been no indication so far that the two crashes are linked.

    Nevertheless, the Indonesian Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) late on Mar. 11 said MAX 8s operated by Indonesian airlines would be grounded while additional inspections were carried out. Inspections are to begin as soon as Mar. 12, the DGCA said.

    Two Indonesian carriers operate MAX 8s. Lion Air has 10 in its fleet, and Garuda Indonesia has one, according to the DGCA notice. Both carriers have more on order.

    The Indonesian DGCA stressed that Boeing and the FAA have said they will advise if any further steps become necessary.

    Authorities in China had already moved to ground MAX 8s operated by their carriers, and Ethiopian Airlines and Cayman Airways have done the same with their MAX fleets. Other countries and airlines operating MAX 8s are taking a wait-and-see approach. For example, Singapore’s SilkAir said it was “monitoring the situation closely,” although there has been no change to its current operations – including scheduled MAX flights to China.

    Cayman Airways pulled its two MAX 8s from service, with president and CEO Fabian Whorms saying "while the cause of this sad loss is undetermined at this time, we stand by our commitment to putting the safety of our passengers and crew first by maintaining complete and undoubtable safe operations, and as such, we have taken the decision to suspend operations of both our new Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft, effective from Monday, Mar. 11, 2019, until more information is received.”

    Cayman’s second MAX was delivered just a week ago.

    Cayman has taken delivery of two MAX 8s—one in November and one last week.

    More than 70 MAX 8s are in service with Chinese airlines that include Air China, China Eastern, China Southern, and Hainan Airlines.

    The Indonesia JT610 investigation is focusing on the roles of erroneous sensor data, a new flight-control law—the maneuvering characteristics augmentation system (MCAS) that was added to the 737 MAX family design to avoid stall—and how the Lion Air crew responded to what they faced.

    Information released by Indonesian investigators show JT610's flight crew struggled to keep the MAX 8s nose up, apparently working to counter MCAS, which was automatically pushing the nose down in response to the erroneous data. A procedure that would override MCAS was apparently not followed by the JT610 crew, though it is unclear how much they understood about the failure sequence. The aircraft crashed into the Java Sea.

    In the days after the Lion Air accident, Boeing issued messages to operators expanding on MCAS, and reiterating that the procedure for overriding automatic, repeated, nosedown inputs, remained unchanged from previous 737 models. FAA issued an emergency airworthiness directive requiring MAX operators to update their flight manuals with Boeing's MCAS information. Boeing's messages and the mandate did not require any new training or changes to the system.

    As of Monday morning, No U.S. airline had indicated it would pull MAX 8s from service. U.S. operators include Alaska Airlines, American Airlines, Southwest Airlines, and United Airlines. Worldwide, airlines have taken delivery of about 350 MAX 8s, and about 100 of them are affected by voluntary groundings.

    However, U.S. Association of Flight Attendants (AFA) president Sara Nelson has formally requested FAA to conduct an investigation into the 737 MAX.

    “Crew and passengers are expressing concern about the 737 MAX 8 following a second crash, with similar characteristics to the Lion Air Flight 610 (JT610) crash," Nelson said in a Mar. 11 statement. "While it is important that we not draw conclusions without all of the facts, in the wake of a second accident, regulators, manufacturers, and airlines must take steps to address concerns immediately. AFA is formally requesting the FAA conduct an investigation into the 737 MAX.”

    Boeing, FAA and the NTSB are among those participating in both accident investigations.

    Boeing has booked more than 5,100 orders for 737 MAX-family aircraft; the first MAX 8 entered service in May 2017.
     
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  11. KKSBA

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    So your short final in a max, and you have stuck flaps so no flaps are down. You’ll have a high AOA and no flaps which arms the MCAS. Now a bird strike takes out the Single AOA sensor and causes MCAS to erroneously dial in downward pitch. That sounds like a lot of fun, especially if your IMC.

    I’m surprised Boeing went with just one sensor source for this type of flight augmentation system.
     
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  12. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    That would be considered dual failure, which are generally not considered as part of the certification process.
     
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  13. Ferrari 308 GTB

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  14. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    A320 family have 3 AOA, 2 primary and 1 secondary, although with full FBW control system the AOA have several functions in the system architecture and multiple cross-checking/redundancy would be expected.
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    US carriers or Boeing if for no other reason than good PR should voluntarily ground theirs.

    Looks a lot better than waiting for the public pressure on FAA making them do it.
     
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  16. Ferrari 308 GTB

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    All about $$$...safety not so much
     
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  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    No question but they need to turn around and have a look at that big snowball headed their way.

    They pay a lot of money for advertising. This isn't the good kind. With the EU and Canada with them, that was one thing. Now they are making it look like they don't care about the American public. The tide is turning rapidly and they really don't want to be on the wrongs side. My bet is before the Friday news cycle is over they will be told to do it.

    Next time Boeing wants an AF contract they really don't want the American public saying "Who gives a F*** about Boeing"?
     
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  18. Bob Parks

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    Thanks for posting this, Jim. It shows the set up and function of the system for everyone to sort out, especially like my wife and those who are irate and in angry panic mode. I had a difficult time explaining it to her and her daughter. I have to admit that I don't have a good grip on why the mcas has to kick in trim as forcefully as it does and why the AOA might be transmitting bad data. I think, too, that there is a problem with crew experience and training in the airlines that had the crashes. Airline pilot friends of mine have all quickly said turn off the autopilot and fly the airplane. I think that I have to turn off my senile sophomoric prattling about things that are now getting beyond my knowledge. Curry's comment regarding the higher thrust engine mounted below and ahead of the wing triggered my memories of designs in the past where the thrust line was displaced from the center of drag with deadly problems. The Fleet amphibian (I think) had a low shoulder mounted wing and a high strut-mounted pusher engine that required a large stabilizer trim panel to counteract the nose down pitching moment. Same problem with the 737 Max ? I think from now on that I'll just watch and listen.
     
  19. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 16, 2012
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    Jim
    Boeing and the FAA have put themselves in a tough position. Boeing is still trying to 'fix' things as a result of the Lion Air crash, and the FAA is taking a position that until there is evidence that the Ethiopian crash was same as Lion there is no need to 'panic'. The problem with the FAA position is they (Boeing/FAA) have not yet put the Lion Air issue to bed. If cause of Ethiopian is same as Lion they will lose a lot of credibility, but if not then FAA looks like the sane person in the room. Only thing that will improve Boeing's image is if cause is related to terrorism.
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    I get it and I am also in the camp that we need to know more but between the statements of a few ex FAA people who have publicly stated the planes should be grounded, Ted Cruise, I guess head of the relevant committee saying they should be grounded, the President saying planes are too complex the growing ground swell of concern and the entire rest of the world grounding them I still think they are way better off making a statement "With an abundance of caution YADA YADA YADA" they will have a far better public position than waiting for politicians taking a PR stand. That would be a big PR nightmare for them and the way things are in DC I can see the head of FAA and the HMFIC of Boeing being dragged in front of a commitee and asked questions designed to make them look bad in a highly charged political season. It could have long lasting negative effects for Boeing.
     
    jcurry likes this.
  21. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 World Champ
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    Dec 15, 2007
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    Tom Tanner
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
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    Brian Crall
    Told you it would happen before Friday. They lost their chance to be the good guys.

    How do such stupid people get to be in charge of anything?
     
  23. KKSBA

    KKSBA F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2003
    14,921
    SBarbara-La Jolla CA
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    KKSBA
    The fun part of MCAS is it is only ON when the autopilot is OFF. That’s another system you have to turn off either that or lower some flaps to disarm it or turn ON the autopilot. I wonder how much the Indonesian/Ethiopian guys practiced all that in the sim.
     

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