News

Ethiopian 737-8 MAX down. No survivors.

Discussion in 'AviatorChat.com' started by RWatters, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
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    Singapore ban all Maxx operations to/from Changi .Started about 1/2 hour ago.
     
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  2. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
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    UK ban 738 Max from it's airspace.Heard maybe Oz too ..basically the US on it's own now.
     
  3. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

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    And writing from the UK at 13.45z. The UK CAA has just now enacted a ban on the operation of the aircraft ‘as a precautionary measure’
    I am sure the initial examination of the DFDR will reveal a great deal of what we would all like to know.

    Tragic whatever happens. RIP.
     
  4. 11506apollo

    11506apollo Formula 3
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    If a software or control system was designed to take control of the airplane, IN CASE the plane is climbing too fast (right ?), then why do pilots have to disengage this system??? why isn't the software smart enough to recognize it has done its job, the nose is down again, climb rate is normal, and that's it?
    I really do not understand why a pilot must disengage a system which automatically kicked in to protect the plane? if my question is dumb, please explain it to me.
     
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  5. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    The 737 has evolved into some of what a 757 was it still is not able to replace its capabilities. Boeing continues to face this dilemma as they consider the launch of the NMA. The 757 was far longer than the 737 and it subsequently held far more people. It had a real intercontinental range capability along with being faster and with a completely different avionics architecture. The 757 cabin cross section was the same as the 737 which is common to the 727 and back to the 707.

    The 757 was killed when the sales dried up. In hindsight Boeing maybe should have waited the market out since the NMA is all about trying to find a new solution to what the 757 did and what the A321 has mostly taken on (for which Boeing has no viable answer). The in development Max 10 is going to try chipping away at some of the A321 advantage with another stretch and a redesigned main landing gear to gain some more ground clearance for larger diameter engines.
     
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  6. furmano

    furmano Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Given that the UK has now grounded the airplane, maybe you're cynicism is spot on. :(

    -F
     
  7. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
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    Smoke/flames before impact is a very common eyewitness report to air accidents so whilst not proven should always be treated with caution.

    There could also be a debris trail in this event although looking at how badly the scene was secured with pictures of kids holding debris who knows.
     
  8. KKSBA

    KKSBA F1 World Champ
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    A poster from PPRUNE I found credible. ET is the Ethiopian airline code-

    “Background: my first Boeing was the 737-200 and 300, left seat on the 757 and 767, currently flying the 737NG, never been closer to a Max than across the ramp. I have never operated MS Flight Sim. Multiple carriers, all overseas for the last 12 years. I spent a year flying the NG at ET a few years ago. Total flying career 32 years and counting.

    First: ET pilots. I entered ET right at the introduction of the MPL program for FOs. As far as I know their new pilots are still graduating under the MPL: program. For those who don't know what that is, it's Multicrew Pilot License. It consists of 70 hours of actual airplane flight time and 130 hours of simulator. The pilot does not have a CPL. So the 200 hour copilot is plausible, though unless the Captain was an instructor the FO probably had a little more time than 200. I sometimes got a fresh FO with a grand total of 230 hours, having been signed off as meeting the standards. Here's the truth - none of them could fly an airplane. Plain and simple. No exaggeration, just the plain truth. There were multiple times I flew with an FO who, after almost a year on type still couldn't fly worth a darn. I'm not talking the finer points, I'm talking basic airmanship. Next, local captains. Most are competent but ET had (probably still has) difficulties with new upgrade captains. they move up the ranks strictly by seniority. After a year or so on the Q400 or 737 they go to junior FO on the widebody, then senior FO on the widebody, then back to the Q400 or 737 for upgrade. Big culture shock, big step backwards on technology, big change in route structure. Their upgrade line training program typically took 4 or 5 times as long as a current & qualified captain. There's a big difference between logging time droning along for 12 hours vs. short-haul. Not throwing rocks but I usually see a large quality gap between FOs who came from short-haul vs. long-haul. As was said previously, Addis is a captain only airport and almost certainly the captain was PF. Lastly on the pilot side, CRM is mostly non-existent there, it is very much a top down cockpit culture, though that probably was not a factor here.

    Next, the FAA: I'm certainly glad that PPRuNe has, in three days, solved the crash! Hallelujah! The NTSB and local crash investigators need not even show up. The big uproar that the FAA has not grounded the Max is a good thing. It means they are doing their jobs, not acting rashly and on pure emotion, rather basing any decision on facts when they come. I notice that EASA has not issued a grounding order (which they certainly can). Considering that the bulk of the Max fleet is operating in the US and Europe, what on earth are they waiting for? (that's sarcasm, by the way). Maybe they are waiting for some actual data to come forth before condemning the aircraft. Maybe they know something we don't. Hmmmm....

    Next, MCAS: I'm not weighing in on this as I have exactly zero more facts than anyone else. I do have a few questions though concerning the final few moments of both the ET crash and the Lion crash. Both times the aircraft was in day VMC conditions, both seemingly experienced speeds much higher than what could and should be considered normal for level flight at low altitude, so what gives? I can certainly tell my airspeed by looking out the window, regardless of how many alarms at whatever obscene volume are blaring any time. If the data is to be believed, 330+ knots at around 1000AGL to me means someone forgot the cardinal rule: fly the airplane. Pitch, power, and if possible (it was) look out the damn window!

    Next, basic airmanship: If I have, simultaneously, an A/S and/or ALT disagree, stick shaker, and an increasing need for backpressure on the yoke, my first action is to fix the flight control issue and that means assuming a trim problem. I can handle the airplane all day long without an altimeter or airspeed indicator (in VMC conditions) but aircraft control is first, second and third on the to-do list. Maybe airmanship is not taught anymore (it's not but that's another story) but basic airmanship teaches us that even in an airplane without a trimmable HS, a mistrimmed airplane will be harder to control at higher speeds. So grab the thrust levers and use them. Set pitch and power. The 737 can be flown, albeit with a lot of force required, with the pitch trim at either stop, but at full nose down the control forces will be massive at high speeds. Couple that with the elevator force diminishing with higher airspeeds and it may reach a point where at speeds above barber pole you may run out of elevator. I was taught this years ago, though I know it is not taught anymore. Moral: fly the damn airplane.

    I could chime in on lots more but frankly, why bother? Based on most of what I've read (and could stomach) the PP needs to be removed from PPRuNe.”
     
  9. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    The aircraft system is taking its input from sensors and not "looking out the window". If the input is bad the aircraft continues to think it is doing correctly even if it isn't. Ultimately the pilot(s) need to act as in command pilots and not button pushers and monitors.
     
  10. wthensler

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    I’m not an aviator, but interested in the subject. To this day, I find the Air France Crash over the Atlantic one of the most haunting transcripts I’ve ever read.

    Dunno what to think here, let’s see how it plays out. Something is clearly not right with the way Boing envisioned the MCAS concept.
     
  11. Mckinney

    Mckinney Karting

    Mar 29, 2013
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    I don't recall any other case of a new commercial aircraft suffering two fatal crashes within the first few months of introduction, certainly not an aircraft as widely used as this one. Maybe this will mark a turning point in thinking around automated flying systems? It certainly looks like it could be financially devastating to Boeing.
     
  12. Bisonte

    Bisonte F1 Veteran
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    All 737 MAX flight ops suspended in Europe, as of 3PM today.

    “As a precautionary measure, EASA has published today an Airworthiness Directive, effective as of 19:00 UTC, suspending all flight operations of all Boeing Model 737-8 MAX and 737-9 MAX aeroplanes in Europe."
    "In addition EASA has published a Safety Directive, effective as of 19:00 UTC, suspending all commercial flights performed by third-country operators into, within or out of the EU of the above mentioned models.”
     
  13. Steelton Keith

    Steelton Keith F1 Rookie
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    Thank you KKSBA for your informative posts. I did 5 legs last week on 5 different aircraft models and would have no problem jumping an a 737 Max
     
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  14. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    While I think this is generically true, I know some people who have flown with the accident Captain in the past and felt that he was an above-average aviator by any standard. I don't imagine the FO was a whole lot of help, however.
     
  15. RWP137

    RWP137 Formula 3
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    There is nothing wrong with this aircraft imo. MCAS is no different than aileron/spoiler mixing in a low airspeed turn. Same with the stab trim. The NG and MAX will auto-trim with the auto pilot off if no trim input is commanded within about 10 seconds. If the automation starts doing something you don’t want it to do....turn it off and fly the plane manually!!! Something the foreign carriers have a tough time with these days. (Reference the Asiana crash in SFO)
    I used to train Chinese pilots, some having never driven a car. We’d give them around 250 hours of actual flight training (plus classroom and flight training device time), then send them back to China where they’d go right into an airliner. Let’s just say I’d never set foot on a China carrier, or an African one for that matter.
     
  16. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    To add to this, the specific problem in the Lion Air accident (not sure yet about this one) was that the sensor was in fact bad, and feeding the system bad data. There is a corrective action which can be taken in this case, and the previous crew of the Lion Air airplane followed that procedure and landed without further incident.
     
  17. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Yup, the first Lion Air crew acted like pilots not like the second one that monitored it all the way to the crash site.
     
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  18. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Anybody else smell a little Airbus influence in the EASA decision? The EASA has a bunch of ex-Airbus folks in their ranks.
     
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  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I am not an airplane pilot, I am an airplane monitor. We're going to crash.

    All that work to build idiot proof airplanes and they just build a better idiot.

    It will be interesting to see how many directions they point fingers during the investigation.
     
  20. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    IF it turns out that this is an MCAS situation like the Lion Air then it is inconceivable that the airline and all the 8Max flight crews were not aware of the correct procedure to over ride the system. What happened, why it happened and the correct cockpit procedure was disseminated around the world.
     
  21. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    and the FAA Aircraft Certification Office in Seattle (SACO) has a bunch of ex-<______> folks in their ranks.;)
     
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  22. JLF

    JLF Formula 3
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    MCAS or not, airplane problem or not. No one with 200 hours of flight time has any business being in the front seat of an airliner.
     
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  23. KKSBA

    KKSBA F1 World Champ
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  24. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    Unfortunately countries without a lot of resources have to do the best with what they have. You could make the same argument for healthcare in those places and lack of resources as well as training experience, but to them it's better than nothing even with the risks. I met a general surgeon from Mongolia in medical school while rotating in our pediatric orthopaedic service (Shriners hospital in FL) and the stuff that guy had to deal with back home with what he had to use was incredible...

    There's no way they can afford well trained and experienced pilots or other professionals with lots of training for all their needs. We have it made here in the US.
     
  25. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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