News

Ethiopian 737-8 MAX down. No survivors.

Discussion in 'AviatorChat.com' started by RWatters, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. energy88

    energy88 F1 World Champ
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    Another new 737 Max problem on some aircraft waiting delivery:

    https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/18/boeing-finds-debris-left-in-new-737-maxes-now-in-storage/#more-32624

    Mark Jenks, the VP and GM of the 737 Program, sent this message to employees today:

    Team,

    During these challenging times, our customers and the flying public are counting on us to do our best work each and every day. That’s why we’re taking action after a range of Foreign Object Debris (FOD) was recently found in the fuel tanks of several 737 MAX airplanes in storage.

    FOD is absolutely unacceptable. One escape is one too many. With your help and focus, we will eliminate FOD from our production system.

    We’ve already held a series of stand down meetings in Renton with teammates on the factory floor to share a new process for stopping FOD. This process includes:

    Updated instructions and required checklists for teammates working in the fuel cell areas.
        • Additional verifications including inspections, audits and checks into our tank closure process to ensure there is zero FOD within the fuel tanks.
        • New signage added in these work areas to help remind teammates of the appropriate steps to take.
    The success of this initiative is dependent on you. We need our entire team to make this a priority. Thank you for your commitment to put safety, quality and integrity into everything we do.

    Mark
     
  2. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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  3. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    This could become as screwed up of a mess as what McDonnell Douglas went through some time back. MD and the FAA got into a pissing match over the tolerance on where the clips were located. Some FAA person made MD go through several revisions before they finally got satisfied. Get "satisfaction" MD had to redo airplanes that had already been modified. I remember the article (likely AW&ST) that documented each wire routing revision that the FAA imposed and it was nothing but some self important FAA person flexing their opinion.

    I figure the FAA at this stage in the Max debacle cannot do anything that would show themselves to be less than the most stringent possible even if it violates reasonable thought. And, with this sort of inside the ballpark leak to the media it makes it harder for anyone with the actual authority to get reasonable.
     
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  4. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    Been there.
     
  5. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    Yep. Per the article the questionable wiring on the Max is same as on the entire NG fleet, which Boeing used to make their case. Likely that the Max's original cert plan was based on older regs, which is entirely acceptable. Even if the FAA required the MAX to now adhere to newer regs, in the past it would have been entirely OK to use an Equivalent Level of Safety finding to certify. They've gone off the deep end.
     
  6. Jeff Kennedy

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    It would be interesting if Boeing Cert Plan, that the FAA would have approved, did list compliance to the older wiring regs. If so, this would be further indication that the FAA is moving the goal post for political reasons and Boeing can't argue too strenuously or it makes them loo bad too.

    There sure are a lot of internal leaks going on. It reminds me way too much of a situation at Goodrich Aviation at Everett (had been Tramco, now named ATS) where there was a PMI that was pissed off because of being over ruled at a prior place and now was intent on seeking revenge (wanting to violate someone/anyone out of business) at his new place (Goodrich). He found some writer at the Seattle Post that he was feeding information to that were creating regular feature articles on "bad maintenance". He was citing the violation quantities that he was writing up. What the newspaper never grasped was that Goodrich was one of the good places and the quantity of violation was not about the actual work but paperwork (stamps in wrong spots, incorrect reference numbers, etc.). This PMI also got into a big issue on the scaffolding used to shore up 737s for skin replacements. He didn't like how Goodrich did it and even after a major meeting with at least 3 of the base client airlines (quality operators, not the dirt bags), Boeing and higher ups at the FAA all agreeing that what Goodrich did was perfectly acceptable he still would not relent and the FAA higher ups wouldn't stop him.
     
  7. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    Its always amusing when there are articles regarding new aviation safety regulations being implemented on new airplanes. What is never mentioned is that until the first delivery of that new airplane, every airplane in the world fleet is currently flying under the older (less safe:rolleyes:) regulations, and will continue to fly for yrs to come.
     
  8. ndpendant

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    Maybe a practical question, but with all the info on the 737-8 max and its issues, do you all think the flying public will just follow along and get on and fly, or will people cancel and refuse to board when they find out they are on a revised max aircraft. (the passengers who fly often and are well informed on the equipment they fly on daily/weekly)??
     
  9. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    I won't have any problem at all flying on the MAX. The public will get over it too when the choice is on a schedule and with a price that fits their needs. The airlines will make a big PR program but it will calm down quickly. I would say that the US pilot training culture is better and more reassuring to the passengers than some other parts of the world.
     
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  10. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Right now mo one is flying anyway.
    The max delay may save some airlines as they dont have to pay for them yet.
    What a difference a few weeks makes.
     
  11. Bob Parks

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    Ignorance breeds fear. Knowledge feeds confidence.
     
  12. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    As suggested, Boeing should rename the modified aircraft somehow, rather like was done with the Lockheed Electra; after its updates the airlines called them Super Electras or Electra IIs and people apparently flew them with no qualms.
     
  13. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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  14. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Which is funny, since it was already the Electra II. Amelia Earhart flew the original Electra...

    Maybe the Electra III????
     
  15. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Well, they rather ignored the fact that they had built an Electra 25 years earlier.

    When they tested the Allison turboprops on a Constellation, they put the names of the two aircraft together and called it the "Elation"!
     
  16. Bob Parks

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    While I was at Boeing I got into the Electra problem and solution. Once the airplane was corrected and modified it was one of the safest airplanes in service. The Navy still uses them for long range patrol and we heard them coming out of Whidbey Island NAS all the time. Haven't heard them lately but they were used for a long time and were very reliable. I think that Boeing will eventually overcome this glitch. Too much good stuff going on.
     
  17. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    P8, based on the B737, replaced the P3
     
  18. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Just remembered that the Electra I was one of Kelly Johnson's first projects; refine the design in a wind tunnel to fix some handling issues. He put a twin tail on it...
     
  19. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 Veteran
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    Boeing will be ok after this is over. As Bob said, too much good stuff going on. Watch the 777X replace the A350's in 5 years :) It happened before with the A340's. The L188 Electra really went out of service with airlines because it was not a jet. Strategic error on Lockheed's part.

    I really think the 737 Max should have been back in service months ago. They are paying for their arrogance now with political payback. And with the WTO, Airbus is even worse if you look at some of their cases recently.
     
  20. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    This is a far, far larger story. In the most recent WTO ruling this one issue of the Washington State tax being repealed would clear Boeing. On the other hand, Airbus remains in serious trouble with the legality of "launch aid". Launch Ad is direct money "loaned" by some of the European governments to und the creation of new aircraft model. The loan is forgiven if that related aircraft program does not become profitable. See A380 for a prime example.

    Boeing and Airbus keep claiming the other is the great offender, while they are the innocent victim. Some years back they decided that running to the WTO for a ruling was the way to solve this. Each side has an amount of skeletons and historically hurt feelings. Neither views the world in the same way so each time there is a WTO ruling it just starts another round of appeals and then new claims of wrongdoing.

    It does not help that to the US side Airbus has had a known history of being a politically motivated operation where airline deals were done as, especially, a French employment program during election years. An old friend that was a McDonnell-Douglas salesman at the time said that when it was French election time Airbus would cut prices that made no business sense because of the political situation. Also, Airbus had a known history of doing major payoffs to make their airliner sales because up until not that long ago the laws allowed that to be expensed - no Foreign Corrupt Practices Act to abide by.

    If we have some Europeans here they can probably do a better job of explaining their issues against Boeing. But, one that will come up is how Boeing is a major military contractor for the US and as such, it is asserted, that this constitutes government support for the commercial aircraft side.
     
  21. Bob Parks

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    The problem with the Electra was wing and engine nacelle oscillation-flutter. "Bouncing"movement of the engine nacelle fed back into the wing that wasn't stiff enough to damp it and then fed it back into the nacelle that fed it back into the wing that eventually failed. Curry will have all the engineering terms for this mode. They have kind of slipped away from me. Anyway, thicker skins were put on the nacelle and wing and the engine thrust line had positive incidence added, thus causing a break in the upper loft line of the nacelle.
     
  22. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    Bob, you had it right., re 'bouncing' movement!;):D
     
  23. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    I saw it described as "propeller-whirl flutter" or "whirl mode" for short. What made it bad is that at outset, the frequency of the flutter was high and the amplitude was low. Quickly, the frequency went down and the amplitude went up. At a certain point, the frequency matched the harmonic frequency of the entire wing, and what had been simply nacelle flutter suddenly became wing flutter; in effect, the wing began to flap like a bird's. Needless to say, structural failure came quite quickly after that. They say that the total duration from onset of the flutter to failure of the wing was little more than 20 seconds! Imagine what a poor passenger looking out his window and seeing the wing begin to flap thought in the few seconds available.
     
  24. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    There was a later Braniff Electra that crashed in 1968, apparently due to structural failure, when the pilots attempted to use their radar to penetrate a strong thunderstorm (never a good idea) and wound up in a severe cell that tore their aircraft apart. However, relatives of one of the dead pilots claim that that had nothing to do with it, and that the aircraft was a victim of an explosion of illegal cargo on board, somewhat akin to the ValuJet crash in the Everglades some years ago.
     

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