Ethiopian 737-8 MAX down. No survivors. | Page 25 | FerrariChat

Ethiopian 737-8 MAX down. No survivors.

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by RWatters, Mar 10, 2019.

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  1. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    He was talkign about the NG's. Said as an example some warning lights had to be mounted behind the pilots as there was no room left on the panel, so they put a mirror on the glaresheild so the pilots could see what lights were going off.. That on an aborted takeoff when they got master caution warning the captian got master caution but only the copilots panel had the read out for what it was(or maybe it was the oehhr way round), . So its a plane that complies with rules but is now a hodge podge.

    Yeah it makes money because its was far cheaper to keep stretching and evolving than develop something new, so boeing could sell comparatively cheap and make good profits and the airlines got a relatively inexpensive aircraft with good fuel economy due to modern engines, but it required ever more workarounds.

    One need only look at the order list fro the a320 series, particularily the lomg range versions now ordered by united(replacing 757's) to see that Boeing is loosing out bigtime and been caught flatfooted regardless of whether the max crashed or not.

    Yes there were or are plans for an articulated landing gear to band aid again and make a competing aircraft. But at this point I would say the 737(and boeing) is suitably tarnished that regardless of the backlog boeing is going to be loosing more market share without something new.

    Yes the 737 is great for Boeings bottom line now, but its mortaging the future sticking with it and we're seeing that price being paid even now.

    Fundementaly its management failure which corrupted the development process. MBA's answering to "shareholders" push boundaries untill there is fallout. Its one thing to make crappy cars that no one wants to buy in the end, or run the same formula rehashed(harley) its another thing when your product kills people in a field where reputation for safety and good enginering is the mainstay.

    The money saved always costs more in the end as Ford discovered that with firestone tires on the explorer, the list is endless.

    A comapany leader listens to MBA's and engineers and creates a healthy balance, leadership also looks to the future even making foundations(product)for what comes after theyre retired. A visionary leader takes chances for the future with new innovative product that has growth(707,727 727 747 etc) I guess Boeing took a chance on the 787 but their MBA execution was so poor and naive that the cost ended up being 5x what was planned.

    I dont know how one fixes broken corporate culture once it has permeated so far through the system.

    Boeing is being run by financial engineers, which is why the share has done so well and is still holding up, but its clearly lacking in terms of fundemental product development.

    As a suggestion, Boeing could analyze what the strengths of the A320 series are and develop another "tradional" aircraft relatively inexpensively that has the A320 series beat by 5% which is all it takes. Or they could build a Cf single asile aircraft like the 787 that will be 10% better with great growth. But they gotta get moving.
     
  2. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    From Yahoo...:

    " Boeing BA has announced it is currently considering outright suspension of production of its beleaguered 737 MAX airplane. The grounding of the plane around the world has already cost the company a reported $8.3 billion, and the company makes 42 737 MAX planes each month at present. This news has sent BA shares down roughly 4% at this hour..."

    So, thinking that nothing they do with the software will regain the confidence of the public, leaving no other option?
     
  3. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I think more MBA types trying to stem the cash flow of making and parking airplanes. They should have seriously cut production rate a long time ago. A severe cut in rates would have been much better than shutting down the entire pipeline. The supply chain is very long and diverse, including many small businesses where a complete cutoff will jeopardize the company.
     
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  4. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    I think the problem is that they have run out of room to store the aircraft that have been built but not delivered. Once they are flying again (which should be soon), I think the suspension will be of short duration.
     
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  5. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    I have a different take here. They've been fullfilling existing orders while new orders have dried up. But they still have a lot of planes ready to deliver once the FAA approves it. And the FAA is going to approve it.

    These planes are not going to scrapped. The FAA also got a blind eye on this one and isn't going to make certification easy. Its going to be even more expensive for Boeing to get out of this but the 737 Max will fly again -- albeit probably rebranded.
     
  6. JLF

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    Yea that’s all good and well but you haven’t made the point that the airplane is TOTAL ****.

    I’ve never seen a mirror on the glaresheild nor a warning light behind the pilots seat. What company does he fly for?

    As far as the caution/warning annunciator panels I personally have no problem with their layout or location. There’s really only one amber caution that I am aborting for above 80 knots anyway. The non flying pilot calls out what he sees on the annunciator, if it’s not on the one in front of you you simply look 2 feet to the left and see what the other annunciator says, no big deal.
     
  7. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    I said at the time that they should have put the 757 nose on the NGs to convince the public that it was a whole new airplane. Maybe they ought to do that now!
     
  8. JLF

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    I’d like to see the 757 reborn with modern engines and instrumentation.
     
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  9. kylec

    kylec F1 Rookie
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    They’ve been storing some outside of Seattle in Moses Lake, WA
     
  10. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    All hail the new 747 Junior!
     
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  11. Argosy

    Argosy Formula Junior

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    This could be the beggining of the end for Boeing commercial aircraft. They really are in a pickle.
    737 grounded, 787 probably still not profitable, 777X programme late and loosing sales.
    On top of that, they bought into EMBRAER, whose E2 family is also not selling well. I don't see an easy way out.
     
  12. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Uncle Sam will bail them out if it gets to that point.
     
  13. Argosy

    Argosy Formula Junior

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    That's not good enough in this market.

    Unless Uncle Sam can force airlines around to world to buy into Boeing aircraft, because currently, the only competitive product they have is 787. Any new single isle AC will take almost a decade to develop and introduce into service, by which time Airbus will practically own the market and it will be very difficult uphill battle after that.
     
  14. JLF

    JLF Formula 3
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    Well I have no desire to fly a big jet with a joystick so they better come up with something.
     
  15. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Also heard Texas. Lots of places to store them, but that costs money as well.
     
  16. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Boeing was already set for a 2 week shut down of the production line for the holidays before this latest announcement.

    Boeing had been counting on the new FAA approval before.by the end of this year. Now the FAA has put a "not before" March on the timeline. [I figure the FAA is in their own political mess and can do nothing that would give any appearance of accommodating Boeing.] So 3 more months at a production rate of 42 per put over 120 more on the ramp waiting.

    I have not noticed any more reports on possible simulator requirements before the airlines can operate the aircraft. This has been a running point of contention with some wanting there to be full simulator session for all pilots. If that comes to pass then that will cause another delay as there are not very many MAX simulators to cycle all the crews through.

    Boeing is still planning to increase the MAX production rate into the 50s nut that has been moved out into 2021.
     
  17. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Regarding development of a new Boeing narrowbody:
    How about a revived 757 with the latest engines and an adapted version of the 787 wing design that would fit the existing center fuselage carry-thru structure? This could be a fairly quick, reasonably low-cost option that would use some existing tooling. If a lower capacity is needed than with the 757-200 fuselage, a shorter version (akin to the never-built 757-100) could be made available.
     
  18. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    What do you think the 787 has? Its just a bigger stick;)
     
  19. JLF

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    A proper yoke.
    Sorry, I’m kinda slow, I don’t get the joke.
     
  20. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The 'yoke' on the 787 is really just a big joystick. It may feel like an old fashioned 'yoke', but it is just sending electronic signals same as the Airbus side-stick controller.
     
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  21. JLF

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    #621 JLF, Dec 17, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
    Well it doesn’t feel like a yoke...it is a yoke. I kinda figured you meant fly by wire but wasn’t sure. They got it half right at least. I’m old school and like my planes analog the same as my cars. With cables you can receive so much info on what the jet is doing just by placing your hand on the yoke. But, I’ve never flown anything fly by wire so maybe the artificial “feel” is pretty good.
     
  22. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim- The yokes on Boeing aircraft are interconnected so you can see what the other pilot is doing and feel it if you want to. The Airbus lost off Brazil had the guy in the right seat holding the right side-stick full aft during most of the fatal descent. Could not see that on the left side stick or the captain might have jumped on it more quickly when he showed back up.
     
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  23. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    It's not just whole aircraft that are backing up; consider this photo of completed fuselages at Spirit in Wichita waiting to be shipped to Renton. They look like a bunch of hot dogs!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  24. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    All because cost cutting has become the new corporate mantra. Forget excellence as the minimum standard.
     
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  25. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    When we were working on the 777 I remember in one meeting an airline representative / pilot stating that, "I want to see what my copilot's doing, I want two yokes not two side sticks!"
     
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