Engine Longevity - certainly not 200K

PFSEX thanks for sharing your information but be warned the above is fighting words to some 458 owners on this site. I personally think any information good or bad is useful, some of us are not Ferrari Fanboys so always good to hear both sides. With that said considering Ferrari has pumped out close to 10 000 units of 458 have not heard much about motor problems, so maybe the above is to be expected? Or some could be abuse?

 

Ive seen Toyota motors fail at less than 50k miles and Ferraris go for over 100k easily. It all depends on how meticulous the owners are with maintenance and sometimes it is just the luck of the draw. I know of a Daytona with over 100k miles and I know Jim took his 512 to over 100k. I dont see any issue with a 599 or 612 easily reaching 200k as long as the owner takes care of all the maintenance.

 

Q : Where is the least likely place to find a high mileage Ferrari ?

A : The Dealer

 

The 458 came with defective engines, brakes and transmissions, this and its heavy weight is more than enough to not even use my time on research to improve the car.

The recall made on the engines is due to multiple total engine failures. 458 owners won't post such information, because they are afraid of resale value. Posting this information in the 458 forum would get more than one in crying/panicking/blind mode, and some free non-friendly and flaming posts. Cars and Coffee, boulevard driving, leaving the car parked in a garage for weeks, FCA meetings do not stress engine/brakes/transmission, so most owners have a perception of reliability that would make a Ford Pinto look reliable too.

The transmission has proven to be unreliable. Fortunately, it is the same transmission being used in the 458 Challenge, so the problems are being found early on, the advantage of Racing. If the 458 Challenge were using a different transmission (like Porsche does with the GT3 Cup) we would never find out about gearbox reliability issues. A good friend just ruined a very expensive weekend at Montreal, because the 458 Challenge he ran in his first Ferrari Challenge lost 1st and 3rd gear. I'm accumulating actual info on gearbox failures, so when anyone gets denied warranty work, I can help provide support on the known failures. Don't blame Ferrari for the transmission, blame Getrag, and don't blame Ferrari for the engine failures, it was the crankshaft manufacturers and they screwed up so badly that a recall is being done at this time, and it is a very expensive repair.

I have witnessed the brake failures on my own, but the fix is easy, additional cooling, and different brake pads.

The F430 transmission and engine are tough, the proof is the F430 Challenge cars, 200 hours of race time before an engine rebuild, and transmission holding quite fine.

Pre-2008 F430 with dying F1 pumps (a maintenance part), dying F1 solenoids (a maintenance part as well) could damage a transmission, and most dealers don't service the F430 transmission despite of this being serviceable.

There is a nice explanation on the 458 transmission longevity and the reasons for the failures, as the same unit is in the SLS and is not failing at all.

There are plenty of F430 with more than 100,000 miles running just fine.

For Racing use, we use a 10:1 ratio meaning that a car used for Racing puts the equivalent wear on parts as a car driven on the street for a 10 times longer time/miles (whichever is greater). The exception being brakes, fluids and tires that wear so much faster. On DE or non-racing track use (Nurburgring laps, track days, time trials, etc), this ratio goes down to half, but I use 6:1.

A F430 Challenge with proper maintenance requires the engine rebuild in the 200 hours range. At a racetrack with an average of 100mph, this means the Challenge did 20,000 miles of racing time, most engines from other brands cannot take this much. 20k racing miles would be something like 200k street miles.

 

I think your analysis is ALL wrong. I've gone to a Mercedes dealer and seen crazy things to.

Cars go to dealers for service and when things break...

As for the longevity of the Ferraris. I don't believe for a second that they were DESIGNED specifically to last 200K miles--that just seems silly. Ferrari likely looks at how their owners use their product and build the cars to better accomodate that usage. I would design them instead to handle extremely aggressive driving, short drives, long periods of sitting idle, etc.

However, with the California, I wouldn't be surprised if they detuned the car a bit and massaged the gearbox as well for longevity. After all, these cars, like the FF are appealing to a different demographic than traditional Ferrari owners.

ALL THAT BEING SAID, very few people drive a Mercedes like they stole it on a regular basis. If they did, you would probably see more than a few in the shop with big fat holes in the block. IMHO, there is no reason to believe that if you drove any regular production Ferrari in the same manner you drove a Mercedes S class, that the engine wouldn't last 200K miles plus.

 

Well, I put over 100,000 miles on my 1979 Ferrari 308. The car had about 40,000 miles on it when I purchased it. It was my first Ferrari and I drove it everyday. I never had any major problems with the car and no engine problems whatsoever. Brake booster went out, fuse board and just the regular stuff like clutch and belt service. No problems with that car.

I had three Ferrari 308's (1979, 1980, 1983) and none gave me any problems and I drove them. Later moved up to a 328 and no problems. Next car was a Testarossa and the transmission was a problem. Rebuilt tranny at 45,000 miles and cost $17,005 along with belt replacement and water pump. Knock on wood, my 360 has been good to me.

 

The system will operate as expected until a critical component fails. The failure can be because a MTBF of a part is exceeded, an atypical component failure, operated out of specification (thermal, lubrication, maximum forces, torsional or angular forces, centrifugal force exceeds the centripetal force, etc).

This is also true for biological systems like yourself.

If you want to find a broken car, go the the dealer service bay. Any dealer will have broken cars, from Honda to Ferrari. (I am jealous you have time to hang out at the F dealer)

If you want to find sick (broken) people, hang out in the hospital. (security might disagree with my recommendation)

If you want to find polarized people, ask fchat what color is better for your next Ferrari, Rosso Corsa or Scuderia.

>>But dont complain or seem surprised when you find the obvious.<<

Will my Ferrari last 200K miles? Yes, as long as it is not sold or crashed beyond repair. I will just service the failed components as needed. Will I last 200 years, nope. Some parts are not user serviceable.

*I owned a 200K+ motorcycle. 4x engines, 10+sets of wheel bearings, 20+sets of tires, 5x regulators, 3x ECUs, but with 1x of most everything else including the operator. Its just a machine.

 

As prior, there is very little "different" between lets say a Porsche V8 engine and the Ferrari engine in the fundamental design and operation. Metal is metal. dry Sump lubrication variation vs gravity fed will vary.. There is no reason to think that it won't last 200,000 miles. The engines are robust.
However, they are not indestructible. No engine is. Even Honda engines implode when owners drive them at the Limit. (Hint: most honda drivers don't wind the car above 4k RPM) A broken crank.. a rod through the side of the engine.. That suggests high RPM extremes of operation on the track.
You forgot to tell us WHAT they were doing when the engine failed. Going to the super market at 3k RPM? I suspect blasting down the track at 7-8k RPM. Take any car and subject it to track conditions and it will die. 911 engines implode every year at LeMans. If you drive around town at 3-4k in your 911.. it lasts forever.

 

I doubt that the drivers were doing anything unusual when the failures occurred in most cases - the OP is using data from failures that are likely infant mortality/manufacturing defects and then trying to project life. The crankshaft is unlikely to have worn out or failed due to any of the failure modes related to usage - which need to be understood to project expected life. If he wanted to make a more valid point, he could say that Ferrari, due to its low volume is unable to deliver as high a quality defect free product as high volume manufacturers, this is true, but is an unremarkable consequence of the numbers.

 

I personally know of a 246GT that went 170,000 miles before the engine was opened, so its possible even on the old cars. My 360 has 54,000 miles on it and the motor is strong, I expect no issues with the motor itself for a long time. I am having lots of little issues but none with the motor.

200k miles, there will be some that will make it, 150k miles there will more that will make it. 100k I think lots will. If my motor is any indication I think it will be one of the 200k motors, its that strong at 50,000 miles. Have some motors broken at 1,500 miles, YES they have.

Give me a car, any car and I can break that motor for you, I just need to know if you want it broken in a week, a month or a few years. My other car is a S2000 and its incredible how many people complain that they can't get over 6,000RPM when they first start the car. Then you explain to them that is a safety feature, you can't go to redline until the motor is hot and they ask how to disable that so they can redline it when cold. Give those kinds of idiots a Ferrari and they will break the motor quite quickly, give that Ferrari to someone who understands the machine and warms it up properly before redlining it and the motor will last.

 

FWIW, I have no doubt whatsoever that my Testarossa motor could make it WELL past 200K miles. That thing is so relaxed and understressed. Even as she hauls you into warp speed she never feels like she is working. You rarely if ever hear of anyone having mechanical engine problems with these cars-- differentials yes, but now even they can be replaced at a modest cost with a more robust unit.

I can't speak for other Ferraris, but a Testarossa has the build quality of a 1980's mercedes. They will run forever if people would just take them out of the garage. I think Napolis had one that he drove over 200K miles if memory serves me correctly.

Fantastic cars and proof that a small manufacturer can build a world class automobile on multiple levels.

 

This is good to hear. I was once told by a Ferrari collector that a Dino 246 engine would need rebuilding after 30000 miles.

 

Themayor is going to blow a head gasket when he reads your post.

 

The good ones are still out and about accruing another 100k miles on the clock problem-free, hence why you would've never seen them at the stealership.

 

perfectly said...

 

Sadly hospitals are for the sick and wounded.

 

well said.

 

Sometimes Fchat is it's own worst enemy.

We tell people to go out and buy one, then we tell them don't buy one if it has "high mileage" -- aka 20K miles. Heaven forbid.

Seriously, some posts here are just bad information that do nothing but scare rookies off ever living their dreams.

 

Very well put.

 

I'm new here and I've come across many of these types of posts. Fortunately, it's often easy to separate the purely passionate (i.e. unrealistic) posts from the factual. I haven't read any of the 200K mile posts referenced above but it seems rather easy to spot the huge gaping holes in the "evidence" suggested in the first post. None of it - zero zilch nada - is evidence that a Ferrari engine is unable to make 200K, it's strictly a case study about those particular cars.

As others have suggested, if you want to determine the maximum life expectancy of humans (for example) you shouldn't base your report upon the things you've sen at a hospital. It's a flawed approach and feels forced. Why force it though? Maybe I'd need to read the other threads to understand the passion.

 

Just to reiterate my earlier post. I have no doubt that Ferrari motors, if treated to the same type of use will last every bit as long as those from their german counterparts. However, I would be very disappointed if Ferrari focused their R&D on achieving such mileage goals when virtually none of their cars will ever achieve that number.

Instead, I hope Ferrari has taken the time to speak to their customers, their dealers, etc, and design vehicles best able to cope with the brutal life many of these cars experience.

I cringe every time I am at a car show and I see guys redlining their Ferraris in nuetral (sometimes even when ice cold!) or go on rallies and see every manner of abuse that can be thrown at a car--from burnouts to 0-60-0 bursts from light to light.

Ferraris suffer the hardest life imaginable. They are usually driven in short violent bursts than put away for weeks or months. I doubt many of these cars are even driven long enough to allow the engine oil to get up to temp.

If I was a Ferrari designer, I would design an engine and tranny to cope with these unique stresses rather than this 200K mile figure.

Personally, I think it is a credit to Ferrari that there cars hold up as well as they do.

 

I'm happy that people are able to use common sense when reading these posts. Mine included.

Hypothetically, when I came off the plane just in the US I asked the driver of my taxi in halting engrish if he could "tek meh too WAHLMART". He did and I found Americans to be of a particular sort. Many go out in public wearing the most interesting attire... torn T-shirts, oil stained wife beaters and in general are very scruffy. Many had their hair as "mullets", and compared to wherever I am from are very fat... obese even. Yes, a single flawed sampling can have difficult application to the whole.

 

Truth and reality can hardly be derived from two engines and one gearbox.

I would even go so far as to use your racing ratio for "abuse" miles. The only barrier to owning a Ferrari is having enough money. That doesn't mean the owner knows or cares how to treat a car properly or has a clue how to drive. Ferraris don't for the most part see many miles as they are third, fourth or more in the owner's vehicle lineup.

When it comes time to drive the car there's no doubt a far deal of built up exuberance and I'd wager that the weekend warrior miles are the hardest of all as there's no professional upkeep as there would be after a race.

 

Well it is a sports car and there is a governer there for a reason. I would think if you drive the car responsibly and do the maintence as is schedualed there should be no reason for the car not to last 100k plus miles. There is a 2005 430 for sale in elizabeth NJ with 85K miles thats more miles than I have on my daily driver.