Engine Build - 1978 Ferrari 308 2V | FerrariChat

Engine Build - 1978 Ferrari 308 2V

Discussion in '308/328' started by ItalianProjects101, May 5, 2023.

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  1. ItalianProjects101

    Feb 5, 2023
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    Hi Y'all,

    I have finally fully dismantled my 1978 Ferrari 308 2v per cylinder carburetted USA engine. Upon disassembly I found that 2 cylinder liners have rust in them (as I was told by the previous seller).

    Photos:
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    I am the one that put the oil in, to prevent any further rust...

    I have yet to go to my engineering guy, to get his suggestion however I'm considering boring out the engine, especially since the bores are rusted, maybe I can save the sleeves that way without the need of having them replaced. I believe they are not nikasil coated, I believe that started with the 308 QVs correct?

    What is the largest possible but safest bore?

    I was considering installing these performance parts (amongst the obvious, such as new bearings, gaskets etc):
    • 10.5:1 Pistons (Larger Bore)
    • Standard (non lead) Valves
    • Fast Road Camshafts
    • Custom exhaust manifolds and backbox
    I will be removing all the emission parts. Any thoughts? What type of hp gain shall I see from stock?

    Thanks!
     
  2. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Top of the old noggin I think you can get another 1mm. Maybe a touch more but I don't have the numbers in front of me. That said, that's not the tricky bit. Those are slip fit, wet floating liners and boring out is done outside the block. Some have had custom jigs or 'pots' made to hold the liner to do this. Or get either a used set in good condition or custom new ones.

    In terms of power increase. High compression, hot cams and tuned carbs, that's an easy 30hp. More if one gets crazy with cam profiles, valves & train, porting etc.
     
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  3. ItalianProjects101

    Feb 5, 2023
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    #3 ItalianProjects101, May 5, 2023
    Last edited: May 5, 2023
    So 82mm? Superperformance.co.uk sells 83mm ones. I was considering having mine custom made by a local renowned company at €150 each.

    Regarding boring out, I saw Barkaways UK doing it as follows:
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  4. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    That looks like final honing, which can be done in the block with the proper setup. Cut boring is different.

    I'm not familiar enough with superformance UK and their products to speak to them. If they're listed in that size for the early blocks then it should work. I just don't have the lower register dims in my head. 150/ea custom is a good price.
     
  5. ItalianProjects101

    Feb 5, 2023
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    I believe this is boring or am I not correct? Even in the video they state so and in the video description. I believe the honing is where the oil is used.

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    Regarding the piston bore I saw your site, do you sell some engine performance kits by any chance?
     
  6. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Hadn't noticed the video, yes they are cutting in the first operation. It's not normally done that way as chatter, concentricity etc.. can be problematic. They've figured a way to manage that it seems.

    Yes and no, to 'kits' . The bulk of what we do is custom high performance, so there's not really any parts sitting on a shelf.
     
  7. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    May 10, 2006
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    John!
    83mm is possible but 82mm is just fine too. I have done both. I have mine done the exact way your pics show, with torque plates. Of course removed them first and replace the o rings and seal with hylomar iirc

    Doing nothing else but high compression and fast road cams and springs Superformance sells, which are Cat Cams, then jetting properly with a wideband you will see at least 270bhp at the crank and around 220-225 wheels
     
  8. ItalianProjects101

    Feb 5, 2023
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    So replying so late. What do you mean by "Of course removed them first and replace the o rings and seal with hylomar iirc"? What exactly did you have removed?

    Thanks for the tip about the cams I'll contact Cat Cams
     
  9. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    no problem!

    remove the liners from the block, descale the outside of the liners as they are always caked up with gunk, clean the inside of the block and all the liner mating areas, replace the liner o rings and put hylomar over the o rings to help seal, then reinstall the liners.
     
  10. ItalianProjects101

    Feb 5, 2023
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    I wasn’t gonna take the liners out to avoid any unnecessary additional issues. What I was considering though was to put it in an ultrasonic cleaner. Would that be enough?

    Having said that are there any must do’s and dont’s when performing an engine rebuild?

    From what I understand the valves are to definitely be changed, are there any other things which should be changed?
     
  11. Ferraripilot

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    You have to replace the liner o-rings or the rebuild won't be a full rebuild. Those o-rings are 40+ years old and will likely cause issues, for which you will have to pull the engine again anyway. They're really not that difficult to remove, just be careful.

    Check the valve guide play and replace if necessary.
     
  12. ItalianProjects101

    Feb 5, 2023
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    I wasn't considering doing the liners because a local Ferrari specialist stated that he doesn't trust anyone locally who would reinstall the liners successfully, that is the reason why we were considering boring the liners in the first place, to avoid liner reinstallation.

    How difficult is it to remove and reinstall the liners? The nearest liner reinstallation engineering place he suggested is over seas. In terms of valve guides, I will definitely check those, we will be dissembling the heads anyway to replace the sodium filled valves (are both intake and exhaust sodium filled?). And then we will send the heads for a very minor skimming if needed, they look quite in good condition. Are new valve springs recommended or are stock ones more than sufficient?

    This is what I've came up with thus far as main engine components:
    1. Inlet Valves (Not sure if I should go high flow, not sure if new valve seats would be needed)
    2. Exhaust Valves
    3. Performance Valve Spring Set
    4. Valve Stem Seal (comes with gasket set)
    5. Fast Road Camshaft Set (I contacted Cat Cams as per your recommendation as well as Web Cams for a possible regrinding)
    6. Forged 10.5:1 Pistons
    7. Timing belts
    8. Tensioner Bearings
    9. Air filter
    10. Oil filter
    11. Fuel filter
    12. Spark plugs
    13. Ignition points/Electronic Ignition
    14. Full engine gasket set
    15. Big end bearing set
    16. Main bearings set
    17. Thrust bearings set
    18. Clutch Kit
    19. Oil
    20. Coolant
    Cheers!
     
  13. Ferraripilot

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    John!
    Liners in these do not require the block to be heated like many others such as Maserati from this era. These liners slide out like Alfa’s.

    I haven’t used this particular tool but I have used on like it and they work fine:

    https://m.vevor.com/pulley-removal-tool-c_10325/vevor-liner-puller-cylinder-liner-puller-dry-and-wet-for-75-138-mm-diesel-engine-p_010145876405?adp=gmc&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_id=19813871746&utm_term=&gclid=CjwKCAjwjYKjBhB5EiwAiFdSfvbN-CW6-XG_vUedLNMrEVv9-OOgf_ipkEeOtfR_b4uJnC8B58KwuxoCw_gQAvD_BwE


    As for the valve springs, if you’re using Cat cams fast road spec then higher lift/stiffer springs are required. Stock springs have about 65lbs seat pressure but (iirc) cannot accept lift above around .410-.420 or so. Performance springs (Superformance) to handle valve control for the fast ramp action of the Cat Cams ‘sport’ cams have about 85lbs at the seat and easily accept the lift for these cams which have .433 lift. Note these engines like a very tight lobe center, usually around 104 with cams like these, so ask Cat Cams with the lift at TDC during overlap period is to set them correctly.

    On all these carbureted Ferrari engines I like to install 2 MSD (or similar CD box, lots of options) boxes for ignition as well. Points can still be used to trigger the boxes and the points last a lot longer. Fouling plugs is no longer an issue. You will need a tach adapter like an MSD 8910.

    Once this thing is all together you will want to set up carb jetting with a wideband O2 sensor as the stock jetting is no longer applicable for the specs you are using. The higher compression and cams will send a much stronger signal to the carbs. Increasing choke size to 34mm is a decent gain in flow and is almost necessary to see 270-280bhp which I believe is what you’re after. I am not sure what the baseline jetting might be to start with but the O2 sensor will be necessary to dial that in correctly. Off the top of my head I seem to recall 130 mains with 160 air corrector (using stock F36 emulsion tubes) and .60 idle was where one of these landed a few years ago.
     
  14. ItalianProjects101

    Feb 5, 2023
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    Your information on liners and the recommended tool is helpful, I believe it is similar to this. Is reinstalling difficult? What about the studs? I read several post from various people with some saying that they should be left alone because they seem to be awful to remove.

    My father and I, intend to do the rebuild ourselves with some assistance and tips from a local Ferrari mechanic. We have experience with rebuilding various engines, 4 and 6 cylinder engines but never a V8, so any tips are appreciated.

    You mentioned the importance of valve springs when using Cat cams fast road spec and how higher lift/stiffer springs are required. Do you know if the sports cams are able to be tuned correctly with the stock pullies?

    Also, your suggestion to install 2 MSD boxes for ignition instead of using points sounds like a good idea to avoid fouling plugs. Would it be just as good to use electronic ignition something like this? Maybe I'll find something that will fit.
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    Lastly, thanks for the tip on carb jetting and the wideband O2 sensor. I have a Fiat with twin 40 IDFs and that's exactly how I had it tuned! We'll definitely look into hat as we're aiming for 270-280bhp. In terms of jetting, do you know of a renowned supplier which sells DCNF jets?

    Thanks again for your help!
     
  15. bitsobrits

    bitsobrits Formula Junior
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  16. Ferraripilot

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    Reinstalling is no problem. Check that the head studs all have clean threads, they're usually fine.

    The stock cam pulleys are fine

    If you're firing the MSD boxes with points, know the points will last a lot longer. You can fire the MSD using Pertronix devices but there is no difference so personally I'd stick with firing the MSD boxes with points.

    I get all my jets and Weber stuff in general from an ebay supplier with the name 'Carb.deals'. He's in Europe, I believe the Czech republic.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/293006614170?hash=item44388e1e9a:g:~uAAAOSwsixcigu8&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8D4C17vRsAyPRA9XpErCelRa53384H7xXbpICeRIRQX1WMlEm71qWfvFwDmKb4k1qeA20NdibEsXrdzxYKVUvfAlbJwonInYxdbEStlI1ro4HUEH%2FO82mlWthk8bKK7g7PAjW16VkDjEpC8QDG6%2FZ8Ow61bwlbHI0WtZHUkO2hPaJHFUrSRDxvbyRDmwEgoNfP58atBhnxlipvSDqksWt2FJcjk4ngUw5wHD5ECGNDFUStmyebcJkYNxfub2NgQyzA%2F6RxfuZkG4e8zdQiGIYNDcg4mqllPQQslHbuXGqPTini8OmtuSkycAqA1yDL9deQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6Sn556EYg
     
  17. John A. Muller

    John A. Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 16, 2022
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  18. John A. Muller

    John A. Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 16, 2022
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    I don't know your physical location, but I had a complete long-block rebuild by T.E.M. Machine Shop in Napa, CA. They might be the one to answer your question. Apparently they do a lot of Ferrari work (I had to wait in line for 1.5 yrs). Here is the website...

    https://www.temperformance.com/
     

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