Emergency Hand Brake repair | FerrariChat

Emergency Hand Brake repair

Discussion in '308/328' started by Paul_308, May 27, 2009.

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  1. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
    2,345
    #1 Paul_308, May 27, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Ten years ago when I was 30 years younger, had 2 eyes and a nimble body, I took apart the rear calipers and made the e-brake work so much better. Well it needs it again. I can't remember what to remove first to gain access into the inner sanctum of the e-brake chamber. Which as I recall was gunked up bad. Now the lever (yellow) cannot be moved at all. Will a brake guru help me please. What do I remove first and what daren't I touch. 1980 gtbi

    Yes I have the Rainbolt document but it glosses over the part about removing the brake caliper in para 9.
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  2. PittsS2APilot

    PittsS2APilot Formula Junior

    Jun 29, 2007
    857
    Gulfport MS
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    Joe
    #2 PittsS2APilot, May 27, 2009
    Last edited: May 27, 2009
    Paul, I had to do a rear brake job last year on mine and found a couple of threads on here which helped. If I recall correctly one of the biggest headaches was getting enough slack in the EB cable to pop it out of the arm (in yellow). I found the simplest thing to do was go back where the cable runs through an eyelet attached to the frame and slip it out of the eye. That gives you just enough slack in the cable to get it lose from the arm without prying with a screwdriver or twisting with pliers the spring loaded arm. Does that make any sense? Joe
     
  3. tatcat

    tatcat F1 World Champ
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    Sep 3, 2001
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    panama city beach FL
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    rick c
    talk about the blind leading, the adjuster for the inner piston adjuster is under cap# 23.the cap is removed with a 4mm hey key. under it is the adjuster gear. by turning the gear clockwise, with the 4mm hex key, you retract the piston thus giving slack to the cable. i removed my cable with just a twist and a tug. if you're not experiencing any leaks you probaly just need an adjustment. there is a great thread on rebuilding the caliper that contains info on adjusting the e brake on birdman's site that may be of assistance. good luck.
     
  4. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
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    Tim Keseluk
    LMAO :D I know what you mean.
     
  5. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
    2,345
    #5 Paul_308, May 27, 2009
    Last edited: May 27, 2009
    Left side lever totally frozen. Cable came off easily. Pads like new. Got adventurous removed 4 bolts releasing the outer caliper. 2oz brake fluid came out too, be ready. Tools: 11mm socket + T-27 Torx. (I'll document the process for the next guy).

    Tks tatcat re cap#23. Right side probably just needs adjust but with left frozen, it needs to come off and get some love.

    Doh...re birdman's stuff...we just exchanged links...shows how much attention I'm paying...his brake page is probably all I need.
     
  6. PittsS2APilot

    PittsS2APilot Formula Junior

    Jun 29, 2007
    857
    Gulfport MS
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    Joe
    I retracted the piston just like you described but I still didn't have enough slack in the cable. I was just about to give up and another Fchatter suggested poping it out of the eyelet. Worked great. J
     
  7. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
    2,345
    Last question - right side e-brake lever isn't frozen in place on the caliper...left is. TRutlands rebuild kit with 6 'O' rings and a freeze plug is now $70. I'll call tomorrow. BUT

    Should I rebuild both sides or just the bad side? Mama said not to fix what wasn't broken. Papa said better do it all while you're in there.
     
  8. Spitfire

    Spitfire Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2006
    1,602
  9. tatcat

    tatcat F1 World Champ
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    Sep 3, 2001
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    rick c
    i'm just rebuilding the one side that malfunctioned as i don't track the car, just regular driving. i will replace the pads on both sides though. check superformance in the uk for the kit. their price is about $35. not to hijack your thread but... there was no response to my question of exactly where the circlip on the outboard adjuster screw seats. there is a groove in the screw that falls in the interior of the caliper so i figure that is where the o ring seats but where does the circlip go? good luck
     
  10. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
    2,345
    Outboard caliper adjust has no circlip on mine...just a lock nut at the 4mm hex adjust threads. There is an 'o' ring there also.

    Well I ordered 2 rebuild kits from TRutlands for $60 each plus $8 s/h came to $200. WAAAT? gotta callem tomorrow on that.

    Mine has a circlip on hand-brake lever bottom which took me most of an hour to remove.
    Also at inboard caliper is another circlip which holds the adjustment screw in place that took another hour.
    Seems you have to hold your tongue just right and make this funny noise...it comes right out then.

    Lesson learned, don't disassemble while sitting in a haystack. Finding the 'pill' which flew out was a matter of luck.
     
  11. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
    2,345
    #11 Paul_308, May 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  12. tatcat

    tatcat F1 World Champ
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    Sep 3, 2001
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    rick c
    i've looked at his site every night for a week now. there are quite a few good threads in the archives although none show the position of the circlip. finally got the inboard piston out. had to get medevial on the thing. i've been looking at the out board adjuster screw. in the photo you can see the clip. its' function seems to be holding the screw in place while turning the 13mm nut to lock down the adjuster screw. the groove is where the o ring seats. sure glad i won't have to do this again. perserverance furthers.
     
  13. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
    2,345
    Mine doesn't have that clip. The nut is a locknut and only needs to be backed off slightly to make the adjustment.
    At one point I thought I had a spare clip but it was for the top of the e-brake lever rod holding the spring in place.
    Of course another at the rod under the freeze plug. Third holding the inner caliper sombrero hat/spring in place.
    So, I had 3 clips...did you have 4?

    Incidently two tips...to slip the tiny 'O' ring over the threads on the outer adjustment
    screw I used a 1" piece of electrical shrink tube to protect it from damage on the threads.

    Other tip on inserting the circlip holding the sombraro hat/spring was to use my drill press holding a socket and
    extension down and stable while I worked on the clip. Also, I ground the tip of a small screwdriver fashioning
    a tool to fit into the circlip hole for me to pry. The drill press light was handy, the whole setup allowed my
    plenty of room and visibility to work on the clip.
     
  14. Perfusion

    Perfusion F1 Rookie

    Oct 16, 2004
    4,151
    Marietta, GA
    Full Name:
    Aaron
    It's possible that they sold you a rear caliper rebuild kit & a handbrake seal kit (x2) - that would come out to ~$200....
     
  15. tatcat

    tatcat F1 World Champ
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    brilliant on the tube to cover the threads and the drill press technique, sheer genius. much better than birdmans chopstick method. if you don't have the small, aprox same size as the adjuster o ring, clip on the outboard adjuster screw what holds the screw in place when making the adjustment? just pressure? seems there should be a mechanical connection that the clip would provide.
     
  16. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
    2,345
    Just crawled out from making that adjustment. The adjustment screw isn't loose once that lock nut is tightened. That outer adjustment screw is fixed in place by the nut on the outside and the adjustment screw flange on the inside. The screw never moves but provides a minimum stop for the piston. Hydraulic pressure will push the piston inward against the rotor and when pressure is released, the piston will back off a few thousandths but never back any farther than against the static adjustment screw.

    I must say the adjustment is touchy. I don't have a 4thousandths feeler gauge, my thinnest is 0.008". There is about 10 degrees difference between tight against rotor and back allowing the 8thou feeler in. Actually come to think...it's calcuable. If the adjustment screw thread is 10 turns per inch (wag), that's 3600 degrees per inch, that's 0.0003" per degree, that's 3 thousands for 10 degrees, that's close to what I thot. Jeez, science at work.

    What gets me about the 308 hand/e-brake is the fact it doesn't pinch the rotor like the all normal brakes, it puts pressure in the inside face of the rotor causing friction, yes, but big time force against the axle bearing. I've worked on other such one sided e-brake but the main caliper floated causing a true pinch even though pressure was applied to one side. Gotta fault Ferrari design on this one. (Luca, I'm available)
     
  17. tatcat

    tatcat F1 World Champ
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    i see what your saying. i was examining the mechanisms today on the inner and outer caliper today. but if the spring inside the piston draws it away from the rotor what purpose does the little circlip serve? in actuality i never used my e brake. here at the beach things are pretty flat.
     
  18. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
    2,345
    On the inner caliper, the adjustment screw floats. On the outer end is the e-brake rod, then the 'pill', then the piston. The spring/sombrero hat gizmo is what is held firmly in place by the circlip. The spring/sombrero hat gizmo only provides a guide for the adjustment screw. That adjustment screw needs freedom to move in/out as the e-brake rod is allowed to provide pressure on it.

    Re being flat...the least tiniest slightest incline at a stop and my car will roll backward at least a foot before I can get my foot off the brake and onto the accelerator to get the car moving forward again without it stalling. And invariably some joker will pull up tight against my rear bumper. Yes I need the e-brake + we have hills.
     
  19. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Dec 21, 2000
    6,440
    B.C., Canada
    That's why when you look at the Mondial set-up, they went with a dedicated drum-type set-up within the disc bell for the parking brake and the caliper is solely for stopping with the brake pedal.

    I just rebuilt all four calipers and I have yet to drive my car, but I hope the e-brake is working better than before! ;) It feels like it. I used the Pelican Parts article as a reference ("914 Rear Caliper Rebuild") and they suggested to use 0.2mm clearance between the pads and the disc. Is this too much?

    BTW, the bolts used on the GT4 calipers are RIBE type and the bits you have to use are #6 size for the front caliper bolts, and the rear are #5. Stupid sizes too as it was pre-ISO and thus are M9 x 1.25 front, M7 x 1.00 rear...
     
  20. tatcat

    tatcat F1 World Champ
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    just spoke with eric shay at pmbperformance.com. he has a wealth of info on brakes. it appears the small circlip goes outboard of the 13mm locking nut on the outboard piston adjusting screw. check out his site. although it's a porsche site he does have brake parts available for the 914-6.
     
  21. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
    2,345
    Although mine didn't have that circlip on the outside, I can understand having one there in case one were to loosten and loose the nut, the brake would still stay intact and work. But I have no worries about mine being missing (on both sides).
     
  22. chairpilot

    chairpilot Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2007
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    Interesting you mentioned Eric Shea TATCAT. I just 20 min ago eBayed him a question about his rebuilt caliper offerings. They look great and he has a 100% Pos feedback history. I'm thinking of getting his rear (and maybe front) set this time around and avoid the hassles of my first do-it-yourself caliper rebuild efforts. And, they will look like new with the plated finishings!

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferrari-246-Dino-308-308-GTB-308-GTS-Rear-Calipers_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a317Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a2Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem2c4f6d13f7QQitemZ190311109623QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
     
  23. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
    2,345
    It's easy to shrug off $800 for a pair of rebuilts but with the 'O' ring set $160+ per side and his $200 off for sending in the cores, that makes it $600-$320=$280 as the cost for his efforts for both sides guaranteed. Reasonable in my book having just gone through rebuilding one side. My rebuild effected me nothing I might add as my hand brake still doesn't hold the car now that both sides of the hand brake are working.

    Think I'll check into Brembo for kicks.
     
  24. chairpilot

    chairpilot Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2007
    1,547
    LA, CA & Olympia, WA
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    Hi Paul,

    Adjusting the rear pads for exact clearances is critical to the eBrakes working. Make sure you adjust them "by the numbers". After my rebuild/adjust, they hold on a 10% grade no problem (but I still put it in gear for backup).


    Bob

    PS - sorry we could not hook up when I was up in Oregon in April. Hope to do so in the future.
     
  25. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
    2,345
    I've adjusted them by the numbers. But the design is poor and I'm starting to wonder if they depend on a particular type of pad material. When I bought the car a dozen years back the e-brake didn't work. Five years ago when I had new pads installed by Ferrari mechanic, the e-brake still didn't work. Now, when I noticed the left e-brake caliper lever was frozen open, I thought I could remedy the situation. But the design is faulty. Imagine pushing a pad against a moving rotor vs pinching the rotor with vice-grips. Rotor and pads are smooth and no amount of push force can equal the pinch because the axle will bend and bearing will give way first.

    Materials have both static and dynamic friction. I'm thinking the pad material available when the car was new had better static friction than those available now. Undoubtedly newer pad material has better stopping distance but the static friction has suffered.
     

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