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Electrical gremlins

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by 4heid, Sep 22, 2019.

  1. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Many items are actually unfused, and you always have the problem of someone making/adding a modification (like some audio equipment than is wrongly still "on" with the key "off"). It could be something in the alternator, but I'd check other things, too -- like the door marker lights staying "on" with the doors closed, or the overhead panel light being switched "on" (it is so dim that "on" vs "off" isn't really different ;)).
    Remove the large two-prong "e" power connector (with the two huge red wires) from the fuse-relay panel while measuring this parasitic current draw -- this will let you know if it is something associated with the fuse-relay panel or not. If it isn't something on the fuse-relay panel = then I'd lean towards the alternator or a user modification. If it is something associated with the fuse relay-panel, plug the e connector back in and then unplug each of the a, b, c, w, k, j, x, y connectors one at a time to further narrow it down. If the connector giving the trouble has some obvious added modification, that would be a clue ;).

    On my TR, when I disconnect the battery to install the meter to measure the parasitic current, this resets the added CD changer so it goes into its self-test wake-up mode and draws ~3 A for 20~30 secs IIRC, but then the parasitic current draw drops to 65 mA. Yours isn't changing as much, but the fact that it is changing again points to something added IMO.
     
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  2. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

    Jul 31, 2019
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    Steve,
    You are spot on.
    I found a small amplifier hidden in the wheel well with grounds run to the back of the vertical post in front of the battery. It has reduced some of the load but not all.
    I have disconnected all front and rear latch connectors and the front and rear lid lights to be sure.
    When I removed the E Power connect from the fuse panel during the negative terminal test it does NOT have any affect on the drain.

    I tested the tachometric relay socket with the relay removed and here are the values:

    IGNITION OFF
    Terminals
    87 = 0.2 mv
    15 = 0.5 mv
    31 = 2.6 mv
    30 = 12.2 V
    50 = 0 mv
    1 = -0.8 mv

    IGNITION ON but not running
    Terminals
    87 = 17.4 mv
    15 = 12 V
    31 = 2.8 mv
    30 = 12.2 V
    50 = 0.4 mv
    1 = 12 V

    Thoughts?
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    All OK.
     
  4. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    Great, almost there then.
    I can barely see where the electrical connections are even with the grille removed. Are there alternate locations to test the alternator for drain?
     
  5. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    ok, got it started! It starts great and will do so repeatedly BUT its running poorly now and will die quickly if I dont tap the throttle. However even with that it will just about die a few seconds later. It almost feels like its misfiring but I spent a lot of timing going through the ignition system. It seems similar to the thread from long ago by gfrench.
    Gotta figure out where to look next.

    All this after it was running fine for a few weeks after obtaining it, so not sure what started it.
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    This is a symptom of the protection relay not working on the KE-Jet TR -- are you sure that the red wire at the water thermoswitch is +12V?
     
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  7. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    same problem I once had and as steve write: protection relay or the fuse on this relais
     
  8. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    I had verified the protection relay the other day in my first review of the black box. It was noticeably clicking and the wire was 12v, but I will try again or perhaps just get a new one if there are no other choices. I did note that when you remove it and shake it it sounds like there is something loose inside which isnt usual.
    However, i guess i could jump it, 30 to 87, again amd see if that betters the idling, no?
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    #34 Steve Magnusson, Sep 29, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
    One difference is that when doing the 30 to 15a jumper "test" at the starter, it takes the alternator out of the picture. The function of the protection relay is to blow the 10A fuse if the alternator output goes haywire and puts out a huge high voltage. Easy to redo the jumper test -- if now bad, then per romano's point, you'd need to inspect the fuse, and, if blown = a bad sign for the alternator.

    Using a jumper at 30 to 87 of the protection relay defeats the protection function (unless you build a special jumper with a fuse and a Zener diode to ground matching the internal construction of the protection relay) = puts the risk of a bad alternator blowing up the injection ECUs. (So I wouldn't do that unless you've confirmed that the alternator output voltage isn't going high.)
     
  10. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    Update

    I tried starting it and it turned over momentarily but died shortly after. It runs like an older car with ignition or fuel issues.
    Thus here are my tests taken from various posts:

    1. Jumped Protection Relay C - no start and didnt even seem like it was trying
    2. Jumped Protection Relay C and both fuel pump relays - pumps prime and no sound at all, no clicks, no starter spinning, 0, like a dead battery start.
    3. Steve's post from 2005 on"89 TR running rich" with the following test:
    To really confirm that relay C is bad, when you have the 30-87 jumper in place at the relay C socket and the engine running, measure the voltage of the wire coming in to terminal 15 at the relay C socket:
    If the terminal 15 wire is +12V, relay C is bad for sure.

    When I performed this test, I saw 7-10V trying to come through terminal 15, but the car never started to test if it remained.
    4. Tested Protection Relay C on the bench. When providing 12V to terminal 15 and ground to terminal 31, the resistance between 30 and 87 was 0.2ohms. A click was heard when energized.
    5. Tested the other relay in the black box, ending in 012, by providing 12V to terminals 15 and 50 and ground to 31, and the resistance between 30 and 87 was 0.1 ohms. A click was heard when energized.
    6. Tested the red wire at the water thermoswitch on the water housing during cranking to observe 12V. Yes, I obtained a fluctuating 12-14V under cranking. It was my first test and when the engine did start but soon after died.
    7. Tested the violet purple wire in the X connector for 12V during cranking. Yes, I obtained around 12V during crank but the motor didnt start on this attempt.


    The relays all seem to check out so I dont see any obvious problem unless in some of the more complex ones something else secondary isnt occurring regarding a signal.

    The 12V at terminal 15 on the protection relay socket does seem to coordinate with something and could be where the protection relay isnt working, when otherwise presenting a click, not having a blown fuse and good resistance readings.

    I dont know where to go from here unless its a spark issue in the ignition modules or coils. One coil looks newer, both modules are original and one coil doesnt look good, however both coils had good resistance values when checked earlier on in this process.

    Steve, whats next?!
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    If you can always repeat this result, I proclaim you to be a witch and your TR possessed by demons ;). Seriously, none of that should have anything to do with the starter working when the key is in Pos III (start).

    Don't like this as they should be the same voltage.

    My advice would be to first confirm/deny spark on both banks during starter motor cranking using a liming light or spark tester.

    (If you do have spark on both banks during cranking) With everything plugged in:

    1. Use a jumper wire to connect the +12V battery terminal to the violet wire in the x connector (simulating an always properly closed tachometric relay - of course, the fuel pumps should run).
    2. Turn the key "on" (but don't start)
    3. Measure the DC voltage between the black wire on terminal 31 of the protection relay (ground) to the bare engine block or cylinder head (also ground) = should be very close to 0V DC. Something like 50mV or even 100 mV would be OKish, but something like 0.5V or more would indicate trouble. If OK:
    4. Measure the DC voltage between terminal 31 of the protection relay and terminal 15 of the protection relay = should measure the same voltage (~12V) as between the battery terminals. If you again get a bad result like 7~10 V = bad connection in x, j, or small round C13 connector. If you get a good 12V result = try starting the engine.

    Try some of that and give a shout back...
     
  12. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    I cannot confirm that the voltage difference isnt due to a drain on the battery between and after many attempts to start it.
    However, I will let it recharge overnight on my CTEK maintainer and check the voltages more closely.
    I did obtain a spark test light and it looks good from the spark aspect.
    Here are the videos of those tests, the second start for the 1-6 banks didnt start as clean.

     
  13. Natkingcolebasket69

    Rossa Subscribed

    U will soon find out Steve is a guru;)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  14. Natkingcolebasket69

    Rossa Subscribed

    Btw where did u but ur car? Any info, year color, mileage?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    i found that out on Page 1!
     
  16. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    anyone have any thoughts on the videos I posted?
     
  17. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    Working on a full fuel system refresh with new filters and accumulators. The injectors were crusty and clogged with lots of carbon buildup on the outside.
    The AAR showed 45 ohm resistance and at room temp it was mostly closed with a crescent shaped opening. Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  18. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    looks ok for me

    have not the ohms in mind, have a look in the WSM

    looks also ok for me, room temperature is not so cold that the AAR has to be open totally. does both AAR have the same ohm and the same opening angle?
     
  19. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    yes, almost exactly.
     
  20. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    So back on the merry-go-round I go.
    Replaced all of the injectors and seals, cleaned all electrical connections and added a little Deoxit to assure a good connection and.......nothing, now not even a click.
    After some rechecking it appears the Protection Relay C is bad. I do not get 12V at terminal 87, let alone 15. If I jump 30 to 87, the 12v is clearly there upon entering the ON position, but not with the relay in place.
    So I will replace that one now.

    The tip off was no 12V at the red terminal of the water thermo sensor.
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    I'll repeat -- there is no point worrying about what the protection relay nor tachometric relay are doing if the starter motor doesn't work/engage. They both depend on the same +12V signal from terminal 50 of the ignition switch that engages the starter solenoid to be present to work (when the engine isn't actually running). Have you traced/investigated/measured the signal path from the "+" battery terminal to terminal 50 of the starter solenoid with the key in Pos III (start) as previously discussed? E.g., have you measured the voltage on terminal 50 of the starter solenoid (with the white wire plugged in) and the key in Pos III?
     
  22. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    Yes, I tested that and now its showing 8V in Pos III.
    I put in the new protection relay today and it started right up. It ran horribly for a while so I shut it off. I gave it some time and started it again. Starting was fine, running was poor. I shut it off and spray in some carb cleaner into the throttle body and started it again and running got better.
    After a while I tested the battery to confirm everything now that it was running again and noticed it was dropping voltage, and it had gone to 11.5V. Thus the alternator doesnt seem to be working.
    It appears brand new and I cleaned the connector on it and plugged it back in.
    Since then, it wont start today, the starter just spins in Pos III but wont fire.
    Clearly there is an alternator issues.
    I checked for AC voltage and obtained only 0.2V AC. I checked the red wire for voltage while off and saw the same reading as that at the battery.
    I checked C11 and it looks great after all of the work I put in and was connected well.

    I am at a loss with this beast. It seems when one thing gets fixed another creeps up but I am not sure where to start as everything is checking out.

    I also tested the ignition ecu connector for the throttle switch on terminals 1 and 13 and saw about 3.25 ohms.

    Help me Obe Wan! ;)
     
  23. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    #48 Steve Magnusson, Oct 17, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
    Seems a little lowish, but if the starter engages and spins the engine = good enough.

    Not a good thing -- you need a working alternator.

    Are you saying that during starter motor cranking (and the poor running):

    1. You have spark on both banks,

    2. The regulated fuel supply pressure on both banks is within spec (but it still won't even "cough" when cold starting),

    3. The voltage on the red wire at the water thermoswitch is +12V (or whatever voltage the battery is at -- it will droop a little during starter motor operation)? Another possibility is you've lost the ground to the injection ecus. Getting +12V on the red wire is a good thing, but the real test is getting +12V between pins 1 and 2 at one of the injection ecu itself while plugged in (which isn't easy to do without the special test box).

    If you meant that the resistance between terminal 1 and terminal 13 at one of the INJECTION ecu connectors measured a few ohms when the throttle plates are in the idle position = that's OKish (the switch contacts in the throttle microswitch aren't perfect and the wiring has a small resistance).
     
  24. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    Thanks for the reply Steve.
    I just spent 30 min having someone help crank and testing various aspects again.
    I did a very thorough test of the voltage through the ignition wiring.
    At this point, after cranking it a bit, I get the following:
    1. Battery 12.5V
    2. W connector white wire 4.5V
    3. Y connector white wire 4.5V
    4. C11 connector white wire 4.5V
    5.Term 50 on starter 4.5V

    It appears to me that I have an intermittent ignition switch problem. I wasnt able to disassemble the column to get to the switch to test it but clearly at the W connector the voltage drop is huge.
    The values above are approximate and I did have some higher than normal resistance on the cable from C11 to term 50 but my relay system should help it if it gets enough voltage.

    The ignition switch would explain the intermittent starting issues and the fact that it worked great once and then degraded over time.

    At this time it now does not start. It has gone from starter spinning to clicking as the voltage continued to drop throughout testing. It was 6V at one point and dropped to 4.5V as I kept checking.

    I dont see anyway to test the alternator in its stock position as I cant get to anything but the 12V cable and the regulator cable so I guess it needs to come out.
    Oddly, its looks BRAND new.

    I dont think I can perform the 12V test on term 1 and 2 of the ECU.

    And yes on the resistance value. Could require further cleaning or replacement but wouldnt lend as much to not starting at all as the other issues.
     
  25. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    just disconnect the ignition switch and connect the wires directly to each other to test if then it will be ok.
    or try at the fusebox W connector to jump the red and white wire

    as you write I think it is a problem of the connector where the ignition switch adapter is connected to the wire coming from the W connector or the ignition switch itself

    on the W connector at the fusebox you have 12 V on the 2 red wires with 4 mm² and when you start also at this W connector on the white wire ( 2,5 mm² ). you write that you have 4,5 V, so when starting or only ignition on? if only ignition on then you may not have any readings.

    when you have on the W connector white wire only 4,5 V then you can not have more when you go to the starter

    you have the electrical WSM with the diagrams?
     

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