E-diff vs torque vectoring diffs in other brands | FerrariChat

E-diff vs torque vectoring diffs in other brands

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Mats Andersen, Dec 1, 2018.

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  1. Mats Andersen

    Mats Andersen Karting

    Sep 28, 2017
    144
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Mats Andersen
    Hi
    As I have gotten my new F430 I was talking to my friend about the E diff and how epic it was.
    He told me that it was nice, but nothing different than torque vectoring differientals found in other brands.

    I am aware that the torque vectoring differiental is pretty much std today on many cars, but it surprised me to hear that in 2005 it was std also on other more lame brands.

    In the brochure Ferrari makes it sound like the E-diff is some new invention super tech grabbed out of the F1 car and bolted to the street car.

    So my question to the knowledgeable people out there is; Does the F430 E-diff work in a different manner than other torque vectoring diffs, and was it really hot news in 2005? If not I cant keep bragging about it ....

    I have read all the easily obtainable info on it in brochures etc. But this far it seems that my friend was right that other cars not involved in F1 at the time also had the hydraulic torque vectoring ECU controlled differientals. Especially in 4wd japanese cars and then in Audis, mitsus and Nissan.

    Mats
     
  2. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,632
    Think about it like this, the more loosely the left tire is connected to the right tire the easier it is for the rear end to turn.
    Conversely, the stiffer the coupling between the left and right tires, the easier it is for the car to go straight.
    If we call the first 0% torque vectoring and we call the second a completely locked differential, we see that there is a spectrum of torque vectoring desired.
    For driving around a parking lot looking for a space, 0% lockup is desired,
    for drifting through a 120 MPH turn with you foot to the floor, 80%+ lockup is helpful to stability.
    So we see that one degree of coupling cannot satisfy all uses of the torque vectoring.

    Positraction differentials use springs, cams and plates to couple the left to the right based on the amount of TQ the engine is producing.
    There was an all gearing differential (decades ago) that allow the rear wheels to be 60%-80% coupled. the ratio was chosen by the gears selected.
    Name started with M can't remember the rest.

    E-Diff is simply using electronics to determine the coupling ratio between left and right tires; although Ferrari has certain secrets within its use.
    So, the answer to your question is both yes and no.
    Yes in that all torque vectoring stuff works under the same set of physical rules,
    No, in the Ferrari tuned that particular E-diff to the car it was put in while other will do similar, they are not identical in overall feel to the driver.
     
  3. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,827
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Torque vectoring diffs are old news. Ferrari just put the marketing department to good use and made it seem something spectacular. The big trucks have had it for ever, geez the 2001 WRX had it, with adjustable power split between the front and rear wheels, controlled by the driver of all things.

    I would spend more time enjoying the car, rather then bragging to your friends about it. JMHO
     
  4. Mats Andersen

    Mats Andersen Karting

    Sep 28, 2017
    144
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Mats Andersen
    HAHA yes, thats right. Perhaps they managed to make a very well working example of a torque vectoring diff though. But anyway the concept is old as my friend slammed in my face:)

    thanks guys

    Mats
     
  5. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran

    Aug 4, 2006
    8,316
    Palos Verdes
    Full Name:
    Vince V
    #5 vvassallo, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
    The term e-Differential is a marketing concept. The key is if there is a limited slip differential or not. Torque Vectoring (in 2 wheel drive cars) is another marketing term along with Dynamic Stability Control. These are essentially fancy words to describe a process of using the anti-lock braking system, along with throttle control, to reduce excessive power to wheels that either are spinning or might be close to spinning. Cars with both LSD and e-Diff (or DSC or TV) allow for more latitude in the differential before activating the ABS or throttle controls. They still work the same way where braking and throttle controls are used to rein in excessive power to the wheels where a loss in traction will result. In the case of later Ferrari's with their increased power, all of these systems are necessary to use the car. Launch control is possible because of all these systems. The downside is that the braking parts, for one, become advanced wear items because they are no longer being used solely to stop the car. I remember the story of a friend complaining that tracking a ceramic braked 458 became a very expensive hobby. This is probably why the racing versions of the 458 and 488 have iron rotors.

    Although not Ferrari, here is an interesting case. BMW's stopped including LSD's in their mainstream vehicles long ago, quietly I might add. Their M cars retained them, but all the non-M cars including the Mxxx versions (eg, M240i) switched to e-Diff - interestingly, it can be added to certain models as a delivery option. The feeling was that the public couldn't tell the difference so it made sense to shave some costs off the lesser performance lines. There has been a lot of discussion on the BMW boards about the relevance of this. It was thought that 80+ percent of the owners couldn't tell the difference under normal driving conditions. From personal note, I can tell you that the difference is pretty obvious once you know what to look for. Take a few corners aggressively, stop and feel your rear brake rotors. Ouch. Whether or not you apply the brakes the car is using them to slow the inside wheel at the very least. At the very most, all the wheels are being controlled, though at different points and in different measures.

    Now, install a mechanical LSD in that car. Guess what? The e-Diff is still operational, though to a lesser degree. Luckily BMW allows you to turn your DSC off freeing your LSD to do its job. However, the e-Diff is still operational but it is further in the background. This is a pretty good setting until you want to flog the car at the track. There is another setting that shuts if off completely. This absolutely frees the LSD, however, you get no traction or stability controls. Some cars do not allow this. Lexus, for example has not provision for shutting the ASC off completely.

    I researched this at great length over the past few years and it took quite awhile to sort through the various versions of e-Diff, LSD, DSC and TC. Even then, the marketing departments are busy obfuscating things further. But in a nutshell, these are the basics. Lastly, for AWD cars, torque vectoring is system that transfers power between front and rear axles. It can be done electronically or mechanically and the technology is not new. I don't know of any that use braking to do so, as in slowing the front or rear drive shaft.

    In the end, I'd say, yes the e-Diff makes you a better, smoother driver if you are not already skilled. Turning it off, or way down, might give you more fun and not put you are too much risk at the track since the 430 is not exactly overpowered. However, the next generation, the 458 and 488 probably require this to be manageable, certainly for the greater power the cars have, but also to allow more affluent, less talented owners to control cars. ;)
     
    NuorderSG, hessank and Solid State like this.
  6. Mats Andersen

    Mats Andersen Karting

    Sep 28, 2017
    144
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Mats Andersen

    Thanks for the thorough talk through. it all makes sense to me:)
     

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