Ducati draXter concept drag bike

Ducati bumped its head and now thinks it's Harley.

 

not yet

 

true, and I bet they pick up a big share of the 'Busa crowd.

 

Any feedback on these?

The MV drag offering looks interesting also.

LSJ

 

Love it.

 

Yea, but remember - Ducati has exactly the same problem as Harley, only in reverse.

Harley doesn't have a sport bike. Ducati doesn't have a cruiser. That's really oversimplifying the market, but those are the major categories outside of off-road (and Ducati even has a scrambler now).

For either Harley or Ducati to thrive, they need sport / cruiser bikers. Ducati is exposed, especially if their sport bikes are trapped in the netherworld between "exotic" and "mainstream" (Ducati can't really decide).

We all know that the market for "exotics" in the motorcycle world is a DANGEROUS place to be (see Buell, MV Agusta). Ducati aren't dumb, they need volume.

Think Porsche and the Cayenne. Ducati are doing the right thing here. Even better would be for Harley and Ducati to merge / be acquired by the other. I posted that here YEARS ago, and I still believe this will happen some day.

 

Harley did the retro 1920-1950s harley/indian bike thing so well for so long, they also do the 60s badass and cop bike thing. Problem is those styles mainly appeal to people +50 or older.

I never figured why harley does not do a modern take on a vincent, or for that matter something cafe racer. The v twin motor is prefect for such machines and this style appeals to younger peopel, it would braoden the harley market. The sprtster wouldnt even need that many changes to take on the cafe or vincent look, some decent suspension and wheels and away we go. Ir even a modern rendition of the xr750 like storz does, not the heavy xr overwrought they made recently. It seems they are just so stuck in lardass biker style, and runing out of customers and inspiration.

I like harleys, but if you go in one of their showrooms now or 5 years ago, its all just a rehash of a rehash and most people who want one own one. If they want younger customers as they say, and something fresh, look to cafe racers or black shadows, it fits with their ethos, they have all the bits and dont need to go all plastic sportbikey..

 

I like it. We dropped the bars on two different monsters to below the triple clamps for a look similar. Neat to see a drag version versus track cornering.

 

I really like the looks of the Dragster RR. And I've had an itch since I sold my last MV. That said, I have yet to see one in the flesh.

DRAGSTER LH | MV Agusta

 

MV is in a precarious financial state at the moment. In the short term it might be best to wait a bit and see if they emerge and who will own them.

 

Mercedes owns 25% of MV, no?

 

They did, and it didn't work.

 

They did the XR1200, more flat tracker look, but yea - it didn't really sell (I think it's still in production, though).

Harley needs a sportbike that isn't "Harley". Owning MV was the right idea, but Wandell was a wanker of a CEO.

Buy Ducati (MV doesn't have a big dealer network I believe) AND LEAVE IT ALONE. Don't sell Ducatis at a Harley dealership and vice-versa. Use whatever knowledge you have to cross pollenate tech and possibly business / distribution, but no further.

Wholly-owned subsidiary.

 

As a former Harley owner, I doubt that very much. Most of Harley customers aren't the sporty type; they are the cruiser type. HD riders don't long for a sport bike; there are already plenty on the market. But it's a different clientele that goes for Honda, Kawa, Suzuki, etc...

Also, why HD closed down Buell, when it had the perfect sport bikes? Why HD refused the V-Rod engine to Eric Buell?

Having said that, Harley should stay away from buying/owning European motorcycle companies: every time, it get's its fingers burned.

Years ago, AMF bought Aermachi and called their 2-stroke bikes Harley Davidson. It didn't work. The Italian branch melted and Cagiva had to rescue it from HD.

Then, years later, Harley bought MV, and ran that company to the ground through bad management, lack of investment, and generally "pissing off" the workforce. HD sold MV to Audi for $1 !!! Audi saved MV from bankruptcy.

I will be controversial here, and say that American companies don't understand Italians; that's the best way I can put it. An Italian company run by an American owner doesn't work.

I dread to think what Harley would do to Ducati !! Probably kill it for good. Ducati is far better independent or with an European owner that understand its heritage.

Instead, HD should cover its **** at home and see the threat from Polaris mounting. The latest Victory and Indian bikes are miles better than a Harley. I may be tempted to buy a Scout...

 

Buell as a perfect sport bike is more than a stretch, it is outright fiction. The air-cooled Buells were G-A-R-B-A-G-E as a sportbike. They had character, and they might not have been bad if all you compared them to was a Harley or maybe Moto Guzzi, but they were junk. Gearbox was clunky, handling on the aluminum frame models was "odd", and vibration from the engine at idle was completely unacceptable. I don't see how they ever made it to market to be honest.

The 1125 using the Helicon engine was undoubtedly better. Much less vibration and genuinely fast. It was not a hardcore sportbike like a Ducati superbike but the one I rode was enjoyable enough I tried to buy it from the dealer the next business day after Buell's closure was announced.

Buell was actually making money as I understand it at the time, but there are many reasons why Buell was given the bullet and MV was essentially given back to the Castiglioni family for one Euro. H-D was in dire financial shape, at one point borrowing $600M from Warren Buffet/Berkshire Hathaway for a short time at the astronomical rate of 15% APR. They made the decision to trim back to their core business. They lost almost a quarter of a billion dollars shedding these two brands, but in the long run it was probably the right decision.

I can comment on Buell by information given to me by Harley insiders I have known since childhood living in Milwaukee. Erik Buell had friends in high places at H-D, this is why he was bought out in '93 when he was flat broke and ready to shut down. But he also had enemies within the company too. Once his management friends left and the Wandell regime came in, he was left without much support. Even though Buell Motor was finally operating in the black, the financial crisis meant it was expendable. EB didn't have his friends to protect him anymore.

 

The decision not to mass-produce some version of this has to go down as one of the biggest marketing blunders ever.

When we were designing production equipment for the KC plant in '96 and the Harley guys said it would never be a production bike, I stopped saving and bought a Ducati and never looked back.
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I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying, or I am not articulating it correctly. As context, I've owned 4 Harleys over the past 27 years, and I am a "homer" for the company, at least up until about 10 years ago.

From a business perspective, their market is limited and it's drying up (aging consumer base). They know this, it's not any secret. This is why they offer the Street 500 / 750 models - Big Twins are too expensive, and the Sportster doesn't necessarily appeal to the younger buyer.

They tried something similar with the Buell Blast and the Buell line of motorcycles. The early Harley Buells (e.g., Lightning) were awesome, but they were quirky looking and had tough competition from the Ducati Monster. We know which company / bike won that battle.

The MV Agusta acquisition was an attempt to expand into adjacent markets (Europe, Sportbikes) - it was a great idea that was derailed by Wandell / exec team that panicked when results went south, primarily due to the economy. Short term, good idea - long term, bad idea.

It's all about demographics, and they are in trouble. Their sweet spot is 45-55 year old males, a segment that will decline through the 2020s (some of it discussed here: Blame Harley-Davidson's Downfall On Baby Boomer Demographics)

Cadillac went through the same problem, the threat of BMWs / sport sedans nearly killed them. It took awhile, but they did it.

Biggest issue for Harley is NO ONE WILL BUY A HARLEY BRANDED SPORT BIKE! Trying to sell Buells - which had Harley engines - in a Harley dealer was A BIG NO NO.

Harley can ONLY acquire a company that they keep independent, much like they did Holiday Rambler (a great move early on for them, once they broke free from AMF). The company needs to have presence in Europe and have little affiliation with Harley (other than the ownership). I'd be ok with technology sharing, but other than some consulting on business, LEAVE IT ALONE.

They have no other option. If they continue at their current pace, they will cease to exist.

 

No it's off target. AMF / Harley messed with the companies they acquired. They sold them through Harley dealers, they rebranded them as Harleys, they used Harley parts. I'm not advocating that at all.

I have advocated this relationship for a long time, and I'm not the only one. They will not survive in their current form without expanding their markets.

Why did Porsche launch an SUV? When many said it was a bad move (it was NOT)?

Harley CANNOT have a sportbike sold / branded Harley or use Harley parts (forget the V-Rod engine - too big). They need a subsidiary that they don't touch - think Victory / Polaris, or Bombardier / Ski Doo.

 

Great points. And your post on the VR1000 is spot on too, Harley blew it (although I still don't think a Harley branded sportbike will work).

I think jettisoning MV was more a short term value. They got it off the books, took in some cash, and focused on their core. Good move at the time, but long term a complete mess.

Don't listen to me - Google "Harley aging consumer" - you'll get quite a few stories saying they are in trouble, and they are.

I said it when I bought my first Sportster 27 years ago. It's a slow burn as their consumer base ages (include me in that category). They aren't cultivating a new breed of younger consumers.

Reminds me of a story I often tell about Bic and Gillette. Bic dominated the market for disposable pens, when Gillette decided to enter the market. Bic was infuriated, so they hit back at Gillette by creating a line of disposable razors. Clearly a move to defend their core business AND IT WORKED.

Therein lies the problem. Once the Japanese manufacturers "catch up" in the cruiser class (they have), and the newer offerings on the scene (e.g., Victory), Harley is completely exposed. Their market share in HEAVY motorcycles, a category they have LONG dominated in the US, has dipped below 50%!!! Honda is right around 40%!!! THEY ARE IN TROUBLE!

What will they do? Cut production (they've done it)? Lower prices (bad idea, because you erode margins, and unless they can reduce COGS, it's a death spiral)? Build different cruisers (they've tried that too)?

The answer is they need a complete portfolio. They need to do better internationally (they are trying). Here's a quote from Forbes:

Note - KTM has about 13% market share in Europe. BMW are also major impediments to Harley. Both KTM and BMW have pretty diverse lineups (KTM more focused on sport and off road), Harley does not.

With MV Agusta in bankruptcy, Harley should consider making a move.

 

You are right.

The first Buell with Harley engine wasn't top notch, mostly let down by a clunky gearbox. But it was a start, I felt, towards an American sport bike. But the next one with Rotax engine was not bad at all, way better and heading towards Ducati territory in performance terms, perhaps not in quality.
I had both on loan from HD Stadium in London when they were servicing (actually rebuilding my Sportster). I am not the sporty rider type, but I enjoyed the few days spent with those.

IMO, Buell was never accepted at HD. To refuse him the use of the Porsche-designed V-Rod engine for his next bike was a clear indication. The Rotax was a stop gap, but pushed the price too high. I felt that even the HD dealers weren't fully behind Buell at the time. I visited a few, and the result was always the same; the Buells were tucked away out of sight, and the sellers didn't want to talk about them! One even told me;"As a Harley rider, why do you want to buy a Buell?"

 

This, I well believe!