Drive cycle and CA smog

Hello Dave,
thanks a million! This all sounds very logical. I have had a suspicion on the drive cycle, but since it came from Ferrari North America, Technical Service Department in a technical information bulletin, I decided to try it. I had some fun driving 4500rpm in 4th though, but frustration is in the end what lasted.

Anyway, I am getting a new intake air sensor, I assume the coolant temp sensor is OKish, the temp on the dash seems realistic. Will let you know where I end up.

I do have another question: I have the workshop manual and have read the complete Injection/SAI section. Is there another manual or reference that I can check next time before reaching out here?

Thanks again for the help!
Menko

 

I don't know the answer to that.

I do know I have had my SAI monitors go complete several times when the car was on jack stands. Rifledriver has also said he has had the SAI monitor go complete while the car was on the rack.

There are several components in that system that you can check before tackling the coolant sender, The vacuum valves, the entire vacuum system, the check valves on the exhaust manifold, 550's have a brass acorn nut where you can test for air injection. If all else is good then you're going to have to look at the coolant sensor.

Before I discovered all of this by myself I had Ferrari of San Francisco attempt to reset my SAi monitor. California requires you spend at least $650.00 at that car's dealership attempting to solve an issue before you can be issued a "One Time Exemption"

I paid Ferrari of SF $650.00 to reset my SAI monitor, they couldn't even after several drive cycles plus they have the proper SD equipment. I took the receipt to a referee station and got a one time exemption. While I was at FofSF he told me about a 430 that the owner had spent $32,000 to try to get the SAI reset. I doubted this but didn't say anything. When I went to the referee station the referee told me the same story, how they gave a one time exemption to a guy who had spent $32,000 at the dealer.

Long story short, the dealership mechanics themselves don't know how the system works re: the 11 degree difference. They just continue to make money of unnecessary drive cycles.

BYW, Ferrari of Silicon Valley charges $950.00 for the unnecessary drive cycles attempting to reset SAI monitors.

Talk about a rip-off !

 

For your cold starts, here is a simplified run cycle that might help and cannot hurt, plus no weird drive schedule. Glued together from several WSMs.


Run cycle.

Turn battery disconnect switch off and turn off all accessories (stereo, A/C, etc).


Let engine get completely cold or wait at least 30 minutes.


Reconnect disconnect switch.


Disarm immobilizer with the fob.


Insert key in ignition and leave for 30 seconds.


Turn ignition to on and leave for 30 seconds.


Turn ignition off and leave for 30 seconds.


Turn ignition on, wait for Check OK, and start. May have to push fob again if 120 seconds have elapsed since last fob actuation.


Let idle with no input whatsoever for 10 minutes.


Turn accessories back on and drive gently for 10-15 minutes at least.


You will have to insert stereo code, if required.

 

Yep agreed!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Hi Terry, thanks for thinking along, I picked that one up in the thread too and did it twice over the last week. Unfortunately it did not work!
I now think I either have a sensor failure like Dave suggests or I need switch ECU's because of a code/computer failure. Anyway, I am in process of getting a new air intake temp sensor and see what that does. I have 2 more days to get this done, before I can spend $650 to get an one time exemption.
Menko

 

Be very careful about the one time exemption, don't use it unless you absolutely have to because it can never be used again for any reason. I'd consider sending the registration in with out a smog test to avoid late charges then get the test as soon as you get it sorted.

If you suspect an ECU problem the only person that can really help is Rod Drew at Francorchamps of America, Inc. (ferrarioc.com)

 

Not being a

@ferraridriver @tazandjan you guys are amazing and such an asset to the forum.

I had recently been thinking of another professor I have learned so much from and don’t recall seeing any recent posts from @Cribbj

 

When I had my SAI problem after I got the one time exemption I went through the system from pump to manifold, I replaced all 4 check valves, tapped into the power to the pump with a test light so I could see when the pump was running and for how long. it correlated exactly with the ECU switching from open loop to closed loop. I could see this in real time with my scanner.
I could find no problems anywhere. Everything was working exactly as it should.

The problem, and I didn't know it at the time, was that the ECU was not preforming the SAI test because one of the required parameters was not met. It took some sleuthing to find those parameters, I only found one and that was the 11 degree difference. Anything more than 11 degrees difference meant the ECU would not preform the test of the O2 sensors.

SAI monitor being "Not Complete" is not saying something's amiss, it's saying I'm not even going to look at it until it meets my parameters.

 

Dave, I just did something very similar today. I checked the power/voltage by the pump to see when it runs. It runs right at cold-startup and I clearly hear the high pitch when it runs. I also checked on the vac system as far as I can and it all seems good sofar. I ordered a new air intake temp sensor from T Rutlands with overnight shopping (nothing in Monterey nor at Ferrparts), so I hopefully should be good tomorrow. Will let you know. Thanks again for guidance!
Menko

 

Good luck, I wish I could tell you which coolant temperature sensor but I don't know so I just replaced both as long as I was there.

Be careful about when you "cold start" as sometimes the coolant hasn't had a chance to warm up to within 11 degrees of ambient. Try two early morning starts before the air warms up. The last time I did this I had to do about 4-5 starts before the monitor went complete.

Sorry, I should have mentioned this:
https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-0280130039-Intake-Manifold-Temperature/dp/B0010AH3C2/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?dchild=1&keywords=Bosch+Original+Equipment+0280130039+Temperature+Sens&qid=1617847007&s=automotive&sr=1-1-fkmr0

 

That's a weird one Terry! I have never seen that. I have never seen a drive cycle that did not involve driving.

 

A battery disconnect will wipe out "all monitor set." Is there a convenient way to keep the memory when disconnection the battery? How about a 12V battery device plugged into the cig lighter?

 

FBB- Gleaned from several WSMs as an alternative and she still needs to be driven after the 10 minutes are up, just not in any set pattern.

 

The gauge temp and the coolant temp use different sensors, so it doesn't tell you if the one connected to the engine management system is ok.

Looking at the 456M wiring and parts diagrams, it seems there is only one coolant temp sensor feeding into the ECUs. The 550 has one on each bank.


View attachment 3119814

 

I received the new air intake temperature sensor this morning (yep I ordered the original and had it overnighted ) and installed it. Did 2 cold starts (my 9AM and 11.30AM), monitor not finished. My vacuum lines/system seems to be OK, so I will stop tinkering and will do some really early morning cold starts tomorrow AM. In the mean time, a couple questions for the experts:

I use a 4 language Workshop Manual from April 1998 for the 456M. It does not contain the diagram you showed, I google usually for those but I would like a better or more complete manual. What do you use?

I would love to do the same thing, I do not have a scanner or OBD2 tester yet. I use a generic one to see if the SAI cycle is closed. What scanner do you use and what would you advice me to use for the 2002 456M GTA(Motronic 5.2)

I also went to the DMV and surprise surprise, I did get a month extension! So the super pressure is off, I have 4 more weeks to get this SAI cycle resolved.

 

I have an Actron CP9580 but remember there are NO sources that will tell you what the various codes mean. Ferrari never published the Manufacturer specific codes for 5.2 Motronic. I've found that a list for Audi that has some value but I once got a code that, upon looking it up, referred to a faulty glow plug indicator light malfunction. !!!!!!

The Actron scanner will show you a number of things you can monitor in real time, like O2 sensor voltage readings,

 

Menko- There is an expanded Section L for the 456M that has much more detail than the WSM. Same for the 360.

 

Two in the same day won't work, go out and start it at 6:00 AM a couple days in a row.
Thing is there are any number of reasons the ECU will not perform the test, or maybe it's actually testing and something really has failed.

At this point you simply don't know. If you can locate someone locally with a SD tester it might be worth it, the Leonardo tester doesn't work worth a darn on 5.2 so don't waste your money.
All I know is that after checking every component in the SAI system I finally took the plenum off and replace both temperature senders and the intake air temperature sender.
After I buttoned it up it was late so I waited till the next morning at start it and check for leaks etc. I waited one more day and started it the following morning. The car was still on jack stands. I checked the SAI monitor and it was complete!

I've done this several times, car on jack stands and have the SAI monitor go complete.

I've mentioned the 11 degree difference requirement to several very well known Ferrari techs and one Ferrari service manager. None of them had any idea what I was talking about or had never heard of this before.

n.b. In one source I found the temperature difference was stated to be 13 degrees.

 

This is because I drew them myself, line by line, using the information in the WSM connector diagrams. It literally took hundreds of hours. Let me know if you need any others. I've also done them for the 550, Testarossa & 512TR, F360 (Coupe & Spider), F348, F355 (2.7/5.2) .... You'll still need the WSM connector diagrams to help with connector location (harness routes, etc).

 

Hello Ian, respect!!!! I have been dreaming about my Ferrari ever since I visited the factory over 20 years ago in Maranello when I saw them make this model. I could not afford the $250K back than so I bought a BMW 850CI and have driven her ever since. I love 12 cylinders, you just feel it. But I must admit, Ferrari's are extremely hard to get information on, manuals etc, test equipment, fault code info etc, as if there is a some form of mystique that they want to create/maintain. All my other (12 cylinder) cars I have full information, this one is just so hard to get basic information. Even the Bentley Continental GT engine out, new vacuum lines is very well documented. So, I am EXTREMELY happy with this forum, I would have been dead in the water without it.

Anyway, long story short, I have scavenged this chat and now have over 20 pages in a Word-file with copy/paste on specific things to do or not do do, alternative parts to buy or not to buy, for my 456M. Let alone your 100's of hours doing phenomenal work to document pretty basic but critically important information that should have been available. Who brings their out of warranty car to a dealer. So securing dealer maintenance fees just cannot be the reason I think.

I am getting slowly quite worked up about this issue, I had not expect this. Not sure if there is anybody else that wants to find a commercially viable but friendly way to professionalize this. I would pay at least $2K for a real, complete and accurate manual for my 2002 456M. I have that info for may 850CI and for example for my '47 Lincoln Continental convertible and other cars. It saves me SOO MUCH!! More important, I genuinely enjoy fixing these cars. it keeps me off the streets, and healthy. Even more important, my wife is happy I am busy!! And not spending too much money!!

Seriously, you should sell these diagrams at a friendly price and give the proceeds to a good cause. Or to a 'make a Ferrari Bootleg Manual' fund or something. I'll contribute and would pay upfront to finance this.....
I have read some initiatives earlier in this chat, but have never seen any serious follow up other than the active help I get from experts like @Qavion, @ferrraridriver, @tazandjan who all have helped me tremendously in this short period of time.

 

I finally received my Actron CP9580 autoscanner and surprise surprise, by coolant T is -40F. So with a new airintake sensor and check of all vacuumlines, I now need to get a new coolant sensor. There is no way I can get both of these sensors within 11 degrees. This will be my upcoming weekend job, will keep you al posted.

 

Did you have your scanner plugged into the Right Motronic ECU? If you had it plugged into the Left ECU, as there is no temperature sensor on the left side, your scanner may see this as a faulty sensor (= minus 40degF/C). There was a long, confusing message thread on this somewhere on this forum.

 

Quavon is right. Scan with engine running and you should see two temps, one will always be -40

With the engine not running the scanner is only seeing one ECU, I think it's the left.

 

@ferraridriver and @Qavion , you are both correct. When I run the engine, the scanner suddenly sees 2 air intake and 2 coolant sensors. One of each is at -40 and both the other air intake (new) and the coolant sensors work correctly. I see the coolant temp sensor running up once the engine has started. I have put ~ 1000mls on the car, I have started it cold (6AM) at least 5 times and my SAI monitor has still not closed. I have also gone the CA Smog referee route and there is no exception for out of state cars: they have all monitors to be closed and good.

Anybody any other advice other than take the car in for a major service and replace as much as we can while doing that? Would swapping ECU's (left and right) be helpful to try? Would appreciate any advice.

 

Where ever you take your car don't even bother unless they have as SD 2/3. If all they have for diagnostic work is a Leonardo it's a waste of time.
When you do a cold start keep your foot off the gas, start it and let it idle for at least 3 minutes before touching anything.
Have you checked the air inlet check valves?