Don't these mechanics have to do some training or something? SPOILER | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Don't these mechanics have to do some training or something? SPOILER

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by Ohabu, Sep 28, 2008.

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  1. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    Give it up, I am just quoting fact. But if I remember correctly, you are not a fan of fact.
     
  2. robertpel9

    robertpel9 Formula Junior
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    YUP

    +1000

    The team is F'ing up Massa's hopes almost weekly
     
  3. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Just like how you said there is no telling if Massa would still have spun if he hasn't lost the lead, you also don't know if Massa would have won the races where team screw-ups caused a bad result. And what if he'd gotten a penalty for coming out of the pits into another car before the same as he got today? Surely anyone can see that Massa scored massively by getting away with before the very thing he was penalized today for.
     
  4. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Translation...

    "if we forgive the things that hurt Massa but not the things that hurt Hamilton, it proves Massa is better than Hamilton".

    Errr, not quite.
     
  5. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    Back to the fuel rigs...I would think that the team would have a green light override that wouldn't allow the light to turn green as long as the fuel rig was still connected. Whether it's a lollipop or more advanced light system ala Ferrari, it's still only as good as the human being holding the stick or thumbing the button.
     
  6. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    once again i fully agree with you ron, could not have said it better myself!
     
  7. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oh please. To say that Massa is the best driver on the grid is a complete joke, and just shows what an addle-minded old man you are.
     
  8. absila

    absila Rookie
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    Sep 8, 2008
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    If they keep the electro-lolli they should add a camera and lcd so the driver can also see the mechanics without checking the mirrors,
    and maybe add a second guy up front to press buttons.
     
  9. bowbells

    bowbells Formula Junior

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    Well, having spent a number of years in the hot pits with Brian.S, I can assure you that he is right to call it as he has. We have both been ON FIRE, BROKEN BONES in addition to working 80+ hour weeks. Often we were at tracks before 5am and then packed up the cars/equipment after the race before driving accroos Europe back to the UK to have a day off before turning the cars around in 6 or 7 days. Wasn't a lot different in Indycars (before the split when it was something). We have had cars win races and go out on the first lap. The work input was always 100%, we were both regarded as anal in our approach, but we could walk into ANY team and get work. To call any of these workers anything because your precious f'ing Ferraris don't win IS ignorant
     
  10. bowbells

    bowbells Formula Junior

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    Except to pass the cars at the blunt end of the pack after the stop.........
     
  11. bowbells

    bowbells Formula Junior

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    Arthur Dent
    A man who gets it! Thanks!
     
  12. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    +1

    Go to bed Bow....
     
  13. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    Probably yes. Can't remember, what did Hamilton's crew do this year to affect his season? Hamilton picked the tires for Monza, so what else?
     
  14. absila

    absila Rookie
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    Sep 8, 2008
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    They're different drivers. Massa's faster. Lewis excels at passing. Kubica, you'll have to wait until he's in a top car, but mentally he seems stronger than either.
    Either way, you can't win with F's pitiful pit strategies.
     
  15. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ
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    Thanks Pal.
     
  16. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ
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    Thanks Steve, never a reformed Massa fan, but I respect the way he turned his season around and how he has been superior to Kimi. Other than that, I am rooting for Hamilton who I feel is the best driver of the year.
     
  17. speedmoore

    speedmoore Formula 3
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    The problems are certainly taking their toll on points for the team.

    Melbourne: Blown Engine both Felipe and Kimi
    Monaco: leaving Massa on wets too long, Huge fiasco with Kimi and tires at start leaving him to fight back through traffic at all costs and crash
    Canada: Refueling rig malfunction with Massa, AND KIMI...plus bad luck with KIMI getting hit
    France: Broken collector spring "header" Kimi
    Silverstone: Both Massa and Kimi left on Inters instead of full wets far too long....very costly.
    Hungary: Blown Engine for Massa on penultimate lap in lead
    Valencia: Blown Engine for Kimi
    Singapore: Fueling rig malfunction again.....light went green with fuel probe fully still engaged

    Today, I wasn't pissed, I was simply embarrassed to be a Ferrari fanatic. It should not have happened again after it happened before. Get a traditional paddle "lolly pop" its too easy to make a mistake and overly complitated.....make it stupid simple. Reminds me of the BS air jack lift mechanism Williams was using back when they were competitive giving up at least a second on a complicated machine that did not need to be.......

    Stupid simple is the best way in high pressure situations...... I know, I've been over the wall in professional racing both as a crewman and as a driver many, many times and I've made my fair share of mistakes in the pits. Practice, practice, practice and eliminate unecessary BS. A few seconds in the pits is an eternity on the track.

    Stefano Domenicali: "A black day, there's little else to say. We had the potential to finish first and second but we didn't even pick up a point. We are very disappointed but that doesn't mean we are downtrodden. We have always shown our ability to react, especially at the most difficult times and we will do it again this time. The situation in the two championships has become more complicated but there are still three races to go and a lot of points up for grabs. We know what we have to do to reach our objectives. The first part of the race showed that today our car was the quickest on track. The Safety Car came out at the worst possible moment, but we are not looking for excuses because this uncertain factor must always be taken into account. Then the team made a mistake at the pit stop during the Safety Car period, which cost Massa the race. I am very sorry for Felipe because he was driving a very strong race following on from a great pole yesterday. I want to point out that it was Felipe himself who went to console the mechanic who made the mistake, which shows the team spirit that we have between us: we win together and we lose together. Kimi managed to get into the points but then he ended up in the barriers at one of the many tricky points around this track. A shame, as it would have meant precious points for the Constructors' classification. We must look ahead and prepare ourselves as well as possible for the remaining three races."
     
  18. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Ron, have fun convincing yourself that Hamilton isn't the "real" winner of the WDC this year, if it makes you feel better. Some people are just too stubborn and myopic to see anything other than what they want to see. Massa has done very well this year... the way the season has gone suits his driving talent perfectly - which is that if he has the fastest car, he can put it on pole and win. If he can't put it on pole, he can't win. That's why other drivers in inferior cars are lapping at his heels or even leading him... because they have taken their lemons and made lemonade, while you were sucking on them getting sourpussed whenever Massa didn't win (meaning he didn't qualify in P1) :D

    If you want to go down the road of "rightful WDC's" based on who got screwed more on bad luck and stupid team behavior, then we'll have to start with 2007 and crown Hamilton the champ. I prefer just to say Kimi won it fair and square and Lewis is winning it fair and square this year - don't you?

    Or do you have some convoluted justification already developed for why Kimi was the rightful winner last year, but Massa is the rightful winner this year? If you do, I'm not sure I have enough beer to get drunk enough to give it the careful attention it deserves :p
     
  19. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    There was a huge drop off in +1 posts during your absence.
     
  20. Whisky

    Whisky Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Is it only screwing Team Ferrari ?
     
  21. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    I think a traditional lollipop system is better because in this case the lollipop would have come down again. Massa could not have missed that. Getting a green light and then switching back to red (in a red pod) will not get as much attention by the driver in my view.
     
  22. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Yep, and by the time the red light would light, the system would likely be out of peripheral vision of a driver hard on gas pedal. Hard to miss a lollipop pranging your visor.
     
  23. DGS

    DGS Six Time F1 World Champ
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    You missed a few:
    Melbourne: Phil pits after lap 1 for a nose wing. Oops, they bring him in again on lap 2. (Change fuel load)
    Monaco: Overloading Massa with fuel: 11,7 stationary for a 23 lap stint --- which is why they kept him on inters too long. And his first stint was a heavy 33 laps. (Kimi's tire issues result in Kimi ruining Sutil's best ever run)
    Canada: "Fuel rig malfunction": two stops back to back to stick to "The Plan" for a 30 lap stint -- on a track where SCs are the norm.
    Valencia: Massa's stop was 9.1 sec stationary for a 22 lap stint, Kimi 9.9 sec for 15 laps worth. Pit light system sends Phil out unsafely, almost into Sutil. Kimi jumped the (little green) light on his second stop.
    Italy: Massa's first stop is 30,7 total: two full seconds slower than Kimi's, and they send Phil out into the middle of traffic.
    Singapore: The pit clock was up to 9.2 sec before the lights went green with the fuel rig still attached: putting him on heavy fuel on a street circuit (with a chance of rain). Total pit 1 in/out time: 2:03.359 (Oh, and Phil's spin on lap 50 results in Sutil hitting the wall. Sutil must not like red cars, by now. :p)

    And how many times have they run their pit stops "to The Plan", thus sending their drivers back out into thick traffic?

    Kimi and Phil are very different drivers, but most of the season they've been on the same pit strategy .... except when Kimi's been running heavy (which hasn't really been working).

    The team has not only made blunders, but has been inflexible in their strategy, unable to adapt to changing weather, and apparently unable to learn from their mistakes.

    I'm wondering if Kimi's troubles in the second half of the season stem from the lack of two different strategies: Kimi can either go with Massa's strategy or just load up with fuel and pray.

    Okay, Ferrari aren't used to having two contending drivers, but they're not adapting: they have two fast but different drivers, but they don't seem to be able to run two race efforts. Heck, they seem to have trouble running even one.

    People say "bring back Schumi" -- but it's more like "bring back Todt and Braun".
     
  24. eam3

    eam3 Karting

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  25. speedmoore

    speedmoore Formula 3
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    #75 speedmoore, Sep 29, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2008
    I agree, we should also post those mistakes made by the drivers and it even adds up more. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to point the finger or say its anyone single persons fault but it is the "team" as a whole that are not performing up to their own standards.

    As you confirm, the mistakes in the pits have added up to a large chunk of time and frankly are quite unacceptable for the pinacle of motor racing as well as the pinacle of all F1 teams....Ferrari. McLaren have looked stellar in the pits this season. Just think where we would be if we had been 1/2 as good as them on pitstops and race tactics.

    The strategy blunders or what I woudl call a lack of adaptability.....aka "thinking quick on your feet" I can accept at the first half of the season with basically a rookie team management. But the inability to analyze and correct those problems "learn from your mistakes" really gets my goat.

    As both a former driver and a crew chief team manager I can see both sides of the problems. I was pleased Felipe went over to the lollypop man and consoled him but you have to think in his mind he's going to have to press even harder to win and for that matter the team will think to press harder. Sometimes when you are trying so damn hard its hard not to make mistakes and maybe that is where we are now within the team. But what seems to be a few seconds to an outside observer is an eternity to the boys over the wall and the driver chomping at the bit to get back out. After all, how long does it take for a driver to gap another driver even 1 second when they are close in performance......1 second is maybe half the pit lane at speed on the track. It seems like an eternity of sitting up on the wheel.

    Maybe they all need to have a meditation class in addition to pitstop practice and.....I did see Todt in the pits with a clipboard.....I don't think that's coincidence so they seem to realize they are missing something in track management. The heirarchy don't like it the Frenchman, but even they have to admit he is pretty damn good at the details and pit strategy. There is an art to it that some possess and others never will. Hopefully its not too late.

    Todt, Brawn & Schumacher were so good together.....leadership & awestome strategy, technical prowess and discipline, a great driver and team motivator.

    I feared this was going to be the case before the season even started. All we can hope for is that someone steps up and pulls the team back together before it completely unravels itself. Frankly I think Felipe is the one that is going to have to spend some extra time with the boys in the workshop like Shumi did and keep the motivation up, I just can't see Kimi ever filling that role.
     

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