Doesn´t the 308 have Ackermann steering? | FerrariChat

Doesn´t the 308 have Ackermann steering?

Discussion in '308/328' started by bert308, May 10, 2011.

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  1. bert308

    bert308 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2002
    1,776
    Roermond Netherlands
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    Bert Kanters
    #1 bert308, May 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Ackermann steering is the principle that in a turn, the inside front wheel has to steer more than the outside front wheel, because the inside runs a tighter radius (you knew that). Here is the wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_steering_geometry and see first picture.
    Now I have my project 308 and always when pushing it around, it is very hard to push the car with the front wheels steered for larger amounts, as I push the car in a right curve I can see the left front wheel scrubbing, it wants to run a tighter radius than it does. I always blamed this on the limited slip differential but past week I push the car back in the shop after a 1.5 year break on working on it, and it does it without the engine and box installed. When I measured the front wheels at full lock the inside wheel is 29 degrees turned while the outside is 31 degrees, that is reverse Ackermann. I made calculations and perfect Ackermann for the 308 with 234 cm wheelbase and 146 cm trackwidth should be 30 degrees inside wheel and only 23 degrees outside. Now I messed up my car and made longer suspension arms that increase the trackwidth by 12 cm and the wheelbase to 240 cm but the increased track requires only 0.4 degrees less steering on the outside wheel, while the longer wheelbase compensates 0.1 degrees, so the difference is only 0.3 degree, outside wheel should be 22.7 degrees but it is 31 now!
    Here is another article that goes into great depth and it is explained that you not always want perfect Ackermann, certainly not in a racecar http://www.circletrack.com/chassistech/ctrp_0407_ackermann_steering_system/index.html
    In the 308GT4 workshop manual the maximum steering angles are 30degrees30min for the inside wheel and 29degrees30min for the outside wheel, this suggests less than perfect Ackermann.
    So does your 308 do the same, the scrubbing of the outside front wheel in a tight turn, you can see it when pushing the car with the door open and the wheel turned to the right all the way.
    Or maybe someone can measure the angles the front wheels maken with full lock steering.
    Should I worry, full lock is only at parking speeds. To get better Ackermann would mean moving the steering rack forward (almost impossible) or make new steering arms that don´t have the bend the original ones have. Would like to hear opinions, thanks.
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  2. woody6

    woody6 Karting

    Mar 9, 2009
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    Madison, AL
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    Robert B.
    #2 woody6, May 10, 2011
    Last edited: May 10, 2011
    I'm sure someone far more knowledgeable than me will chime in. It is very difficult to get proper ackerman angles with the rack ahead of the front wheel centerline. If you notice, the steering arms in the wikipedia diagram are behind the center line of the axle, and angled slightly inward. These angles naturally make the inside wheel steer sharper in a turn. Try it with a simple mechanical model made of wood or posterboard and you'll see what I mean.


    --Woody
     
  3. ramosel

    ramosel Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2004
    1,237
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    Doesn´t the 308 have Ackermann steering?

    By the nature of the angle on the steering arms on the front uprights, it has Ackerman steering... It just may not be a 100% Ackerman

    As a product of your tire adhesion you also have to factor in Slip Angle vs. Lateral Force. In the book "Racing & Sports Car Chassis Design" for performance (and race cars), they acturally recommended a small amount of anti-Ackerman. I took several online courses and webinars from John Block (highly recommended if you are into this stuff - http://www.auto-ware.com ). Slip angles, Lateral force, locked/unlocked differentials, spring rates, etc. all have to be figured in when you are working with steering geometry. He indicated that a lot of the pure math on elements such as ackerman (when viewed by themselves) only work on wagon wheels at slow speeds.

    Rick
     
  4. DesertDawg

    DesertDawg Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Bert, without machining new arms, would it be possible to compensate for your situation with a couple degrees of negative camber on the front wheels?
     
  5. bert308

    bert308 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2002
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    Bert Kanters
    For Ackermann with the rack ahead of the axle, the steering arms should be angled outward, but they are not. I must assume Ferrari did this on purpose.
    That is what the link to the circletrack site is also talking about, it is not as straight forward (pun) as I first thought.
    I do have some negative camber in front but I don´t think it affects Ackermann, just adjust the proper toe when the wheels are pointing straight ahead.

    The Ackermann effect only comes in at large steering angles, in a fast curve you don´t steer that much. I think I best leave all well alone.
     
  6. kerrari

    kerrari Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Interesting " 308 project" ...
     
  7. bert308

    bert308 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2002
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    I will dig up my thread about it, when I have enough material for an update...in the meanwhile see my page www.ferrari288.com :)
     
  8. woody6

    woody6 Karting

    Mar 9, 2009
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    Robert B.

    Right your are, Bert308. If Ferrari had angled the steering arms outward, the ball joint at the end of the tie rod would likely interfere with the inside of the wheel and tire. You can solve that problem by moving the wheel outward from the spindle, but then that increases scrub radius (and probably steering effort).

    --Woody
     
  9. ramosel

    ramosel Formula 3

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    While John does a lot of work with the roundy-round guys, he also has helped us significantly with our road race program and has done extensive work with others as well... at the pro level. Don't be fooled by the website. If you have an interest in this stuff, talk to John don't just peek and a website and go on guessing.

    Rick
     
  10. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

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  11. bert308

    bert308 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2002
    1,776
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    Bert Kanters
    With my 17inch wheels there is not a problem at all, the steering arms fit inside the rim and they probably do fit within a 14inch rim, not sure. As you can see in the pic I posted, the steering arms are bend to the inside but as I see it the steering arm hole compared to the upper and lower upright balljoints is pointing straight ahead, as in no Ackermann and parallel steering. I made longer suspension arms and bolt in extensions for the steering rack arms to match, that didn´t change anything to the Ackermann set up, so I must assume this is the way Ferrari intended it.
    I read and understand about the dynamic Ackermann, different slip angles inside and outside wheel, etc. but I don´t want to dig in that far as I have no proper alignment tools or test track available with tools that can measure a 0.1 second faster laptime...I trust the original set up to be good enough, just wanted to know if I hadn´t messed up badly.
    I´m very strong and just lift the front or rear of the car in the proper position...but I hope someone with a regular 308 will post here and say the scrubbing of the outside front wheel in tight turns is normal, ´´they all do that´´.
     

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