Disgusted by Ferrari's Policy of Selling Their Cars...

Doody, well said. What a great conveyor belt, that leads you to a new Ferrari every few years.

This topic surfaces periodically - what is the deal with the lists? Why are there so few cars? Etc. IMO the real issue is that no one, especially someone who can afford a new Ferrari, wants to feel excluded from, or denied access to, the ability to order a new car. Perhaps Americans in particular, armed with the necessary funds, want to be able to walk into a dealership and have the opportunity to outbid everyone else for a new car. Preferring an economic meritocracy, we seem unable to accept that, for the typical client, access to new cars depends on relationships and patience. If these discussions truly dealt only with the economic logic of Ferrari's business model, they wouldn't contain words like "disgusted" and other emotional content.

My first Ferrari was used or, more politely, pre-owned; my second was an ordered car someone walked away from; I ordered my third. I don't see anything wrong with the way Ferrari conduct their business in the US.

 

Great post, Leica. But I'm afraid that there are no simple answers here.

1. When Ferrari released the 360 in 99 and the Spider in 01, who knew that they would have such a huge hit on their hands? Timing in life is everything, but the 360 became a monster. Ferrari could have raised the MSRP to say $200+, but this would forced them to admit that the 575s and the 456s were overpriced. I'm guessing here, but Ferrari probably assumed that things would eventually settle down, but they didn't.

2. The way Dealers get around the no markup rule is to sell cars to each other with delivery miles. (Sometimes, the car will even be titled in someone's name.) Once done, they are free to sell at market prices. Nobody is fooling anybody here, but Ferrari looks the other way because the profit on 360s helped cover the costs of moving 456s and Masers.

3. So, yes, the additional profit is going to the Dealers. But they need it. Do the math. Ferrari sold 1300 cars in the US last year (which includes Enzos). Because there are about 30 dealers in the country, this means a dealer averages 3 to 4 sales a month. Let's say that the normal dealer profit is $20k a car. $80k profit a month doesn't sound so bad, but after you pay your sales staff and overhead, you wonder where the green went.

Long story short, it will be interesting to see how Ferrari prices the 360 replacement. I'm guessing that they will not move the sticker up.

We'll see, eh?

 

A few points. Ferrari's are used as daily drivers. I've done it for over 30 years. I know many who drive them often including to work.
Ferrari for various reasons won't be raising their capacity.
They can't raise MSRP. too much as world demand won't bear it and they don't want to repeat the grey market situation as others have pointed out.
The ROI on owning a Ferrari Dealership even with the profit of selling used 360's over msrp. is nothing to get excited about.
VW bought and poured money into Lambo based on a hope that they could sell as many Lambo's as Ferrari is selling Ferrari's world wide.
This is far from happening.
The high end market is getting crowded.

 

Leica I feel for you and your predicament. Many members here on this site have given you all the reasons (morally/ethically/economically right or wrong) for why the situation is as it is IN THE USA.

My 2 cents from an outsider(non US citizen or resident):
I too have been staggered for some time at the considerable wait lists you hear about at F-car dealerships in the US, and the subsequent prices some are willing to pay to get cars. A friend of mine in the US recently SOLD his 360 Spider back to the dealer for considerably more than I can go down the road here and buy a brand new one(Japan).
Mark may have one of the reasons why- the grey market. I'd be going to a dealer who has scoured the world dealerships lifting unwanted or over-booked dealers and buying their factory orders from them. I know a shop that has about 4 brand new LHD spiders sitting in the shop just waiting for buyers. You still get the full warranty and after-sale service, but haven't purchased the car from the 'official' F-car dealer in Japan. Having said that however, if I wanted to buy a spider from them, it's just a matter of going in and ordering one, which will probably be delivered within 6 months or so (I may be wrong but don't believe I am), and the price is standard sticker as it would be at the grey market dealer.
So am I correct in assuming that there is no grey market in the US? If not why not??- seems like an opportunity to me.
I've also heard that Ferrari is particularly sensitive to keeping the exclusivity of F-cars at extremely high levels in the US as the market is so important to them. Ironically this may lead to US cust's. getting a rawer deal from dealers than other countries.
Someone in a post from ages ago mentioned on a similar subject that they simply crossed the border to Canada and lifted a car from the showroom floor. Have you looked at that possibility?

Here's the irony of how the system works in countries outside the US (and I believe all are different), I want to buy a Stradale, so originally went to authorised dealer. No cars left, order book full. Went to grey mkt dealer who had three on the shop floor, but not the colours I wanted. Asked them to find my specs. They came back and said golbally ALL stradales are sold out and that I'd have no chance.
So I went back to the authorised dealer and asked them again. After much deliberation they said ok "just for me(yeah right) they can do this ONE extra order". Now all ordered, my int/ext specs, deposit paid , delivery apparently in Sept.

funny how things work out in the world of F-cars. Nothing is as it initially seems.

now...I really don't want to sell my 355 Spider. what to do....

 

Just to establish bias, I have a 355 I bought used and a Gallardo I bought new. I love both cars and have also driven the 360. I did not simply decide to buy the Gallardo, but ordered it last summer, so I must be something of a hybrid customer between 1 & 2.

Putting aside the relative merit of the cars themselves, a factor in my new car purchase was my perception of Ferrari dealers. I personally know two people, of the Jon Q. Public variety, who ordered 360s - coupes, not spyders. The cars never came in - in one case even after over 2 years, still no 360. One guy cancelled his order, the other is still waiting at 1 year +.

Call me a cynic, but I have to wonder if the new/used pricing problem is just too irresistable for dealers and their select customers. If a dealer can make an extra $10K, $20K or more by selling a car used with "delivery miles," why would this dealer actually deliver new cars? What enforcement system is there to be sure that cars are registered and titled to bona fide purchasers who keep them for, say, at least a year? Should there even be such a requirement?

Put simply, this was my first foray into the 6-figure care market, it was a significant stretch for me, and I have absolutely no confidence that I would "rate" at a Ferrari dealership. My perception is that I would not be viewed as a "player," but rather some jerk who happend to scratch up enough money to barely afford an entry-level car without any ability to refer well-heeled buddies or make repeat purchases. On the other hand, I have been treated fairly and well at the Lamborghini dealership and while I anticipate the car will depreciate more than a 360, at least I have the car and despite all the subjective comments about how wonderful the Ferrari 360 is, the Gallardo is a better car by all objective measures. In fact, I am told that Lamborghini is taking steps to prevent broker purchases solely to flip the car, in order to build customer loyalty by getting fairly-priced cars in the hands of enthusiasts. Maybe that's BS, but it feels true in my case, given the speed with which I got my car.

I do hope the Lamborghini competition, which is very real for the first time, improves the breed for both marques and their dealers. But I can say that I would never pay more than MSRP for a used late-model car (collector cars are obviously different) and I fail to see any justification for a manufacturer to permit that on a long-term basis. Having used cars more expensive than new cars fosters cronyism or at least the appearance of cronyism, which is a huge turn-off to somone like me who likes to think he is fair-minded. I would think Ferrari should bump price or production some, but then what do I know?

 

and in terms of prices: a 2nd hand Modena here with very low milage is about US$120,000 whilst a 2nd hand spider (much more difficult to find still) would set you back about US$160,000 (new = about US$180,000, possibly slightly more). New stradale= YEN23.5mio @ 108.5 FX = US$216,500 on the road.

 

I am a firm believer in instant gradification if I have to spen 50,000 now and not have to wait 3-4 years I will spend the money. Like my father always said " it's worth only what your willing to pay for it" and in my eyes its worth every penny. So if you are willing to spend the money then you have no problem

 

Just so the stories are not all one-sided, I had a fantastic experience with Ferrari of San Francisco. I'm a first-time buyer and yet was treated royally from day one, and was delivered a new 360 at MSRP in even less time than originally estimated. Both Brad (sales manager) and Evan (sales) were terrific to deal with, true enthusiasts and men of their word. Highly recommended.

Gary

 

It seems to me that you own a F355 with only 5000 miles on the clock. Why not just keep it for a while, and go down and get your name on the list for a new 360-followon; and drive the F355 in the meantime.

You get to keep driving you joy, you get in line for the next big thing from Ferrari (sorry 575 guys), and you get to buy it at list.

 

[Most people are not getting my point
The solution I see to this problem is for Ferrari to raise the MSRP of the cars substantially The only other solution would be to have a FAIR and HONEST waiting list at the Ferrari factory. [/QUOTE]


Ferrari likes its cars spread across the globe (they can market more sunglass that way). The USA only has 5% of the worlds population but would end up with 3,250 of the four thousand cars produced each year, if Ferrari raised MSRP. You forget that Ferrari makes more money on its name-brand and selling toys, posters, clothes to the 6 billion people around the globe.

 

>>> Well, to take your money for a spot on the Modena list would be a bit dishonest... since the list is already so long that production will end before all on the list get one. If you were after a Spider, even back in 2002 that was already true. The window was 1999-2001... you missed it.

I tried to get on list in early 2001, not right now.
They WERE taking orders in 2001, but they just did NOT want to take mine, they only took from previous customers or people who are important I suppose. One dealer simply told me that there is no list, they would sell to whoever pay for asking price.

>>> So, now what? Go into your dealer, and ask to buy a 355 Spider or 360 Spider to enjoy while you wait for your name to come up on the 420 Spider list. Most dealers will sell you a used car and take your deposit and put you on the list... with the caveat that the leftover 360 Spider list will get first dibs on the 420 Spider list once the price/specs are announced.

You see, this is exactly why I am annoyed.
NO PLACE will take me on 420 list.
As soon as I saw info about Monza 420 and spy picture posted here at FChat, I went to the dealers again, ask to be put on list, of course with deposit, not just verbal talking. Same story, 2 places said no such a list, 1 place did not want to put me on list.
So, really, if you know for sure that any dealer(anywhere in continental USA) will take a 1st time serious buyer on list, let me know the dealer name and phone#, I will appreciate it. Otherwise, my point would be valid, that it is unfair BS how it works.

 

"So you see that is why I am pissed off with this waiting list thing. It is all unfair. No justice."

Leica, you make my point that these threads truly are about emotion, anger at being excluded. Why isn't it "just" or "fair" that cars are allocated preferentially to significant clients, as well as those having a history with the marque? Why is it unfair that Ferrari and its dealers get to choose their clients? Why is it unjust for Ferrari dealers to seek to profit from the exclusivity of their product? How many businesses actually allocate scarce luxury products in the mechanical, logical numbered waiting list system you mention?

You enjoyed you 355, and even drove it! If Ferrari is a passion for you, why not take the time to cultivate a relationship with a dealer? If you don't mind a huge price increase, then why not buy a Ferrari or two while you wait for the opportunity to order a new one, and view the cost of the used cars as your premium for ordering a new one?

No disrespect intended ....

 

dude - have a nice glass of wine and relax. it's just a car.

you are the first customer type who calls up his dealer and says "hey - i want a car". you are secondary to the main customers - who ARE on 420 lists that DO exist.

the dealers have a limited number of cars to sell whether we like it or not. the factory is running near capacity, as i understand it.

the customers who buy early and often are in line in front of you. if you don't dig it, start buying early and often . or shop elsewhere - there are a ton of other options available these days - perhaps because of ferraris unwillingness to increase production.

capitalism at its finest!

ferrari doesn't need you as a customers. they don't need me as a customer. you and i don't rate. i don't lose sleep over it.

doody.

 

Not trying to blow it out of proportion, but it's almost discrimination. If I own a restaurant, and reject certain guests because they are not too "elite", I will get my a$$ sued probably.

Speaking of waiting list. Using Hermes as example, their Birkin bag can almost hit $20k, I would say that's like Ferrari of hand bags, so fair comparasion here. Their waiting list is 100%, 1st come 1st served, anyone with money to buy can be on the list, whether your are Martha Stewart or average Joe. In NYC store, they do NOT have waiting list, because list is too long for production fulfillment, just like Ferrari, so what they do is, they do not annonce shipment date. If new shipments arrives, it will go on shelf in the store on that day, whoever walks in can buy it regardless who you are. That's fair, don't you agree?

 

yes, you will open yourself up to liability, but that's because there are specific laws to prevent discrimination in public service environments.

but if you run a country club and don't want to permit me to join for some reason that isn't a "protected class" you're free to do that (he smells bad, he drives a ferrari, etc.).

discrimination happens ALL the time. legal discrimination for all sorts of reasons.

the hermes bag sales mechanism is silly, imo. but maybe it makes sense 'cuz the margins aren't big enough to warrant a formal list (with its formal arguments).

you WANT your BEST customers to REMAIN your BEST CUSTOMERS. i don't see why that's bad business. i don't get front row seats to any Fleet Center event i want. some people do. i don't hold that against them. i don't consider it unfair.

doody.

 

Don't know how to put it a better way, but, the best customers get old and die. They can't just rely on the exsiting customers, they need new customers. I am 30, I can buy just as many Ferrari as any of their "best, exclusive, old clients with history..." between now and the day I die. By not allowing me to start somewhere, how is that good business?

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to argue or p1ss anyone off. Since the subject was brought up by someone else, I just wanted to give my 2 cents. I do realize maybe my location plays a big factor, I am in NY and maybe dealers here are just a-holes. If I am in some nice romote area I might get better treatment.

 

i'm not going to sit here all day and defend the NA f-car dealers - they're big boys - but i think your statements are extreme.

i have admittedly been in few f-car dealer showrooms. but i've been treated very well in those i've been to. and i'm a jeans and polo shirt kind of guy. i've been known to shave every now and then. while i clean up pretty good, let's just say i generally don't look like a typical ferrair buyer when i walk into a dealership.

either the dealerships you're dealing with are just flat-out crapola or you're doing something to really piss them off.

doody.

 

LOL

doody.

 

Leica, I'm sorry to hear that your dealer experience has been negative. The FIRST time I ever walked into a Ferrari dealership, I was offered espresso by a salesman who'd never met me. I'd encourage you to try a different dealership - but I'd understand if you didn't. I have to admit that my choice of marques, like yours apparently, is influenced partly by my feeling about the dealer.


W00dEar, I find it hard to believe that if, say, Gwyneth Paltrow wants an Hermes bag, one won't be found for her without any waiting period. That doesn't seem to me unfair or unjust. If Jay Kay gets an Enzo, and I don't, that also doesn't seem unfair to me. Last time I checked, Porsche NA had a set-aside allocation for celebrities - makes sense. Guess we just disagree.