Dino Saga 061231 _ Small Ferrari, new Dino? | FerrariChat

Dino Saga 061231 _ Small Ferrari, new Dino?

Discussion in 'Corbani's Corner' started by John Corbani, Dec 31, 2006.

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  1. John Corbani

    John Corbani Formula 3
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    May 5, 2005
    1,153
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    John Corbani
    #1 John Corbani, Dec 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Dino Saga 061231 _ Small Ferrari, new Dino?

    Thought I would bounce around a few ideas for the New Year. Lots of Fchat buzz about a new Dino but seems to me that most writers are missing some points.

    1. There is no reason for Ferrari to make a car that is competitive in price with anything. They are selling technology, style and exclusivity. They don’t have to compete against themselves or any one else. Price has to be below the 430 and above the Corvette. Big area to play in. Whatever the factory price, production should be low. Show what can be done with a smaller engine. Base the price on the technology so the buyer knows what he is getting. If the aftermarket is big, they know that they can afford more technology.

    2. The car should be small. Both physically and in performance. 2.5 liters is an upper limit. Under 300 Hp is fine. No supercharger. Light and stiff. Handling in real world is paramount. 2 persons plus real luggage, golf clubs, etc. Size for 6’2” 180 lb. driver. If you don’t fit, sorry. No reason to go over 150 mph so lots of down force is not the big worry, low drag is. Just be stable in the air so you can take a bump at speed. You want to land on the road in the same attitude, in the same direction you took off in.

    3. The car should be able to be used as a daily driver. Maintenance should be low and predictable. You should be able to use Jiffy Lube in an emergency. Rings and main bearings should be the limiting factors that require pulling the engine. Heads should come off easily with rest of engine still in car. Mid engine, rear drive, manual steering.

    4. Use computers only to do the thing they do best; manage details of engine and suspension. Use one for each. Make the computers swappable. Sell spares. Reasonably. Use plain vanilla manual controls for everything else. Cables and pushrods, keys and latches are just fine. Put fuses where you can get to them, at night, in a rain storm, using no tools. Driver should be able to adjust all controls by feel. Without reaching.

    5. It should look fast. Like a P-51 looks fast. Or like a Lancair looks fast. Not like an F-18, or an F-111, or the Space Shuttle. Or a 1930s Bugatti. Little kids should give you a thumbs-up. Don’t worry about teenagers and young adults. Design for those under 10 and successful, romantic 30-90 year olds who have tried the rest.

    6. It should be drivable by mortals on real roads with real traffic. Your wife or one of your kids should be comfortable sitting next to you. If there is traffic, 70-90. If the road is open, 130 would be comfortable cruising. If you see 5 miles of clear desert road, go ahead and push it with no extra effort and no complaints from the co-pilot.

    My Dino does all those things as well as they could be done in the 60s and 70s. I would love to see someone do as well today with all the toys the engineers now have. Ferrari and Pininfarina are the logical one to pull it off. Lotus has tried but keeps missing . We will see. Happy New Year!

    John
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  2. andys250GT

    andys250GT Karting

    Jul 2, 2004
    64
    Loudon NH
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    Andy Subbiondo
    Amen, amen, amen! Your idea of what a Dino should be corresponds almost exactly to mine. I'd add one more and that is that it should have no more than 6 cylinders. We live in an age of tight energy supplies and Ferrari, like everyone else must learn to adapt.

    Is that your Dino, it's beautiful?
     
  3. dignini

    dignini Formula 3

    Aug 21, 2005
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    <RANT> John I agree with all your points. I also think that should be Alfa's job. A lighter smaller Dino was doable then, because it was still way more than other cars on the road, for the most part, only the 911s could really be called "challengers". The name Dino was already well known then, not because of Ferrari's son or because of the road cars, but because of the racing sport and prototype and formula One winners. The Dino name is steeped in racing history and the road going Dino's were a natural by product as was the Lancia Stratos.
    Today it would inevitably fall in a market place where it would be compared with lots of other small lightweight cars with very high power to weight ratios and excellent handling etc. so it would have to score on exotic materials and exclusivity. Driveable jewelry in fact.
    I think i repeat myself here, nevertheless, I do not believe anyone can design a new Dino, in the same way no one could design a new P38 or Spitfire, it would almost be shame is they tried. Pininfarina tried with the 308 and I do not believe the 308 it is as elegant or as inpressive as the Dino. If they (FIAT) want to make a new low price Ferrari, they could do a lot worse than follow your guidelines, but please do not call it a Dino. I do not believe that those of us who remember the racing Dinos will see any link or connection. Call it a Shumi for all I care but leave Dino alone! </RANT>
     
  4. dignini

    dignini Formula 3

    Aug 21, 2005
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    PS
    looking at your car outside that entrance......reminds me of a time when I came out of a hotel and my dino was waiting for me. It was surrounded by a group of Finnish business men hovering over the car pointing talking excitedly in appreciation. I just stood back and watched, too embarrased to get in and drive.
    Lovely car John. Even the wheels are growing on me:)
     
  5. John Corbani

    John Corbani Formula 3
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    May 5, 2005
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    Exactly my rationale. I owned 3 Alfas before the Dino and have kept up with them since. There is no way that Alfa could have designed the Dino in the late sixties and no way they could do the job now. Too many suits and bean counters. No real life racing or styling experience that is relevent to the task. No one but Ferrari has it either.

    The Swiss watchmakers tried to build electronic watches and were eaten alive by the Asians who could build just as good a watch but cheaper. Took a few years for the Swiss to realize that their strength was building jewelry. Practical jewelry that offered Style and Performance. Price was set by what it took to build at that level. Discriminating buyers would pay what it cost. The Swiss watchmakers are doing pretty well again.

    Carbon fiber chassis, variable valves and fuel injection could get weight down, get torque flat from 2000 to 7000 and get 20-30 mpg. Aerodynamic styling could give you a car that could compete with the 430 in performance. Smaller but Oh My! Fun to dream.

    John
     
  6. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    Scott

    Fuses?!? Rallye/racing cars have used circuit breakers for decades, now is the time for an upgrade into leading edge electrical performance. Self resetting circuit breakers would also be exciting.

    New technology lighting (front and back) would stir me.

    The P-51 Mustang was a monster of an engine with a body attached. Not sure I literally agree on your analogy, but if you meant to state that the new Dino should not sacrifice performance for technology's sake and also to retain the nimble and even balance of the original Dino, then I'm behind you 100%.

    Ever seen the Alfa Romeo Diva? This should be THE candidate for the new Dino. Nothing has struck me as attractive as the Diva.
     
  7. John Corbani

    John Corbani Formula 3
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    Good discussion. Compare the P-51 with the P-47 or the Corsair. Or the Bearcat. 50 years later who has won at Reno? When Dago Red is going, it's winning. And it looks faster on the ground. Not just engine, by a long shot.

    Diva has all the right goals, the execution of a real production car with all the creature comforts is a long way off. This is where the suits get in the way. The crew who designed the Dino were drivers above all else. EVERYTHING had to be just so from the driver's standpint. Hard to get that in a large corporation looking for serious production. Besides, I believe the Alfa stylists have more sway than the aerodynamic and structural boys. Go back and do an analysis of the Dino shape. Slippery, good looking, great visibility, structurally stiff, stampable. In composite, look at the Lancair, look at Grand Prix yachts. In metal, look at the Eclipse. And for power, the Alfa used cubic inches, not finesse.

    Finally, the fuses. If automobiles were assembled and maintained by certified aircraft mechanics (or trained race teams) I would agree that breakers are great. If not, I want a fuse to blow that requires effort to change. Better a tow than a molten wire harness. Under any condition, protection should be accessable, not hidden behind screw panels.

    John
     
  8. dignini

    dignini Formula 3

    Aug 21, 2005
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    The Dino shape was born from the racing cars before it. It was by any account a vision into the future based on the cars already on the racetracks. Ferrari needed to shift some cars, it is not in the same shape today. Alfa was not in the large capacity market they never really made good large capacity cars, come to think of it, none of the Italian automakers did! Cars with incredible driver appeal but not "good" cars like the Germans and later the Asians. So now, Alfa goes large capacity thanks to Maserati via Ferrari. Its water from the same font, with different flavor depending on which maiden brings it to you. I can't see how Fiat would allow its offspring to fight amongst themselves. Ferrari, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Fiat. All have to find a place. Only Ferrari has a firm sense of being. The others are struggling to find their niche. John the car that you describe could be a corporate platform, with different trim Power and levels of exotica. If they can make a 164 out of the same paltform that makes a Saab, then they can do this. Priced at 40k Fiat, 50K luxo Lancia, 60-90 Alfa, 100+ Maser 140+Ferrari. Mix the numbers for your favourite concoction. Talking of which, Gonna help the missus with the Beef Wellington for our New Years day lunch> see y'all later
     
  9. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    I dunno.

    I've seen maybe six threads here recently with a variety of discussions about a new Dino.

    I don't want a new DINO. If Ferrari wants to "down market" a car, call it something else. Call it a Niki, or a Schumacher, or some other favorite son of Ferrari legend and lore. LEAVE THE DINO NAME TO STAND AS THE ICON THAT IT IS.

    And, if any of you think Ferrari is going to build a 6 cylinder car, DREAM ON.

    Mid engine? under $150K, not gonna happen. And if you want one with the engine in the front, just buy the Maserati. Fact is, if Ferrari had re-badged the Maserati with a Ferrari sticker, they'd sell like hotcakes. There's a reason they didn't do that, don't ya' think?

    So, let's cut out all this speculation and wish making for a "new Dino" ok? I don't see any of you running around hoping there will be a modern version of the Mona Lisa anytime soon.

    Who wants a replacement, or a reproduction, or a "modern interpretation" of a car that's already visually stunning, great fun to drive and rare enough to stop trafic when you roll by. Certainly NOT ME.

    DM
     
  10. ferrarinyc

    ferrarinyc Karting

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    Tony G
    Echo that Dave. Totally agree.
     
  11. 74dino246gts

    74dino246gts Karting

    Aug 6, 2004
    126
    Northern California
    I also agree with Dave. The Dino is a timeless art piece that does not need updating. Now the Alfa Diva, that's another story.
     
  12. ghenne

    ghenne Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 8, 2004
    432
    Toronto, Canada
    The closest I've seen to this spec in a modern car is the Lotus Elise.

    Parked side by side with a Dino, it's easy to see how they share a design philosophy.
     
  13. mikeyr

    mikeyr Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2004
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    Mike Rambour
    That is because the designer of the Elise owns a 246 and has for over 20 years, he has stated he used 246 design elements into the Elise.
     
  14. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie

    Feb 11, 2006
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    Andres
    Yes, indeed. If you drive the Elise, the similarity will be more obvious; it has the same driver's view as in the Dino - the fender bulges that frame the road. It of course has the side scoops too. The similarity is most obvious in the Series 1 Elise, which I think was never available in the US.

    The Elise's designer, Julian Thomson, said he did use the Dino in the design, apart from the obvious Lotus Elan, Europa, and 23 styling cues. He added that he then had to put in some ferocity into the car (if it were too pretty, it might fall into the dreaded "hairdresser's car" category), so he said he took that element from the Lancia Stratos, a relation of the Dino.

    Having said that, they do drive very differently. The Elise is a Lotus, very light, very quick. The Dino is more of a GT car.

    I wouldn't mind a small, mid-engined, rear-wheel drive modern Dino.
     

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