Dino in Italy

I am glad to hear nobody here has lost money on this yet... although, sadly, it is very likely someone somewhere will. We can but hope the hapless mark finds Fchat and this thread PRIOR to wiring any deposit.

I cannot add anything specific to this case save to say that car selling scams appear to be the new tech stock / securities fraud scams. In my previous professional arena I dealt with a lot of people helping unravel tech stock and securities fraud and never ceased to be amazed by how seemingly intelligent people, often with high level careers, ended up being scammed out of hundreds of thousands of dollars, often over many years.
Consequently, for personal interest, I have been watching the development of these car selling scams over the last decade and, whilst I hate to admit it, they are now remarkably good at collecting their mark!
Scammers are now going to considerable effort to produce apparently credible supporting information - web pages, forum posts, websites, escrow and transport companies etc. all designed to support their scam advert and increase its credibility. There are plenty of examples of totally false forum pages extolling the virtues of a particular company / person, created from a doctored copy of an original forum page and with all the links within it linking correctly to bona-fide forum pages. The pages are hosted with web addresses close enough to the original as to be easily overlooked - www.ferrarlchat.com as opposed to www.ferrarichat.com - all clever stuff that is designed to dupe those not on top of their game and induce the mark to lower their guard. The pages stay live for a few days / weeks then disappear....

Ultimately the scam is simple - convince mark to wire money by direct bank transfer. Keep in mind that often the scam's goal is not to secure the entire asking price, they are often actually only aiming for the deposit as the 'pay off'.... the bigger the asking price though, the bigger the deposit...

I would continue to urge anyone tempted to try to acquire a car 'blind' to think very carefully about what they are doing and to question the credibility of the information they are basing their transaction upon. If still tempted, treat any wired funds as throw away money that you won't miss if it turns out the deal was phoney. The old adage still holds true that if something looks too good to be true, it probably is!

 

A few years ago, I sold a car ('49 Land Rover) to a guy in Modena, Italy. He bought it sight unseen from an ad I had placed on an internet site. After he made contact we exchanged e-mails (he spoke very little English and I very little Italian, so we communicated via Google Translate!) and I sent him more photos (which I could have taken of anyone's vehicle that I had maybe seen at a show) and when we had agreed a price, he sent me the full amount. We did not know each other from Adam.

A fortnight later, a man with a transporter already well-loaded with cars bound for Italy came to collect the LR and two days later, Giuseppe got to see the car he had bought for the first time and was very happy (and was still happy several years later when I paid him a visit in Modena when I went out there to collect my Maserati).

Would one be able to do business that way again today?

 

There is another scammer right here on fchat that has specifically created a website for his car, in order to re-write the history. Unfortunately the car is not real.......

Marcel Massini

 

He never asked for a dime. I do not get it.

Nevertheless, these were the last exchanges on how he operates:

"Thank you for the clarification, Mr Becciolini

The photographs are great, but they do not prove you own the car.

Please send me a copy of the car's documents,
and the copy of the restoration invoices from Ferrari.

I hope you do understand, given the price and the distance to go see the Dino,

These request should be of no offense to you, as I really do not know you,
and as well, you do not know me, but I am extremely serious, and have the money to buy the car.

If you expect me to start doing serious business with you, you cannot expect me to accept, and I quote:

"I have the car at a garage near by, with specialized conditions.
You come to me, and we will go together".

Please understand, I live in the USA, so cannot take the next Frecciarossa and come to visit.

To help our business relationship, you might take a photograph of a very recent Firenze newspaper,
near the serial number of the Dino.
By the way, how would you wish to be paid if we arrived at an arrangement?

Reply:

Ok, no offence taken. Send me a copy of a document of yours and I will send you what you requested.


Dear Mr. Becciolini,

May I remind you that you are the seller with the car, and in theory is interested in selling.
You are in no position to make any requests, except for money, if I decide to buy your car.

I am the potential buyer with the money.

Therefore, if you are still interested in my potential purchase,
kindly send the documents I requested.

If not, thank you very much, and we will forget all about this deal.

If you are still interested and comply, I will have my legal department evaluate the situation and will reply with your requests.

Kind regards,


Andrea Becciolini

Don't ask for what you are not willing to offer. Goodbye!



Dear Mr. Becciolini,

Thank you very much for your kind reply.

Good luck with your sale.

(Italians hate to be wished "good luck" on anything, as it is considered bad luck to do so. )

Regards, Alberto

 

Alberto, you are such a gentleman and your final response was way to polite despite wishing him good luck.

Perhaps a more fitting and final parting shot would have ended;-

I see through your amateurish scam from the outset but just thought I would have some fun and **** you around a little..............

 

Care to enlighten us?

 

Your observations are appropriate, Neelfryer, but don't be afraid. For me, this type of trickster is not inclined to create other damages, other than those relating to the theft of money.
5 years ago, before the jump of the price of the Dino, I read about a white GTS, US version, at a very low price . I don't remember exacly but it was something like 30K Euro.
I realized there was a trick but for fun I asked about, you never know.
The car was in Sevilla (Spain) and I had to send 2,5K euro to get a reserve. He was a Spanish doctor and he was compelled to sell the car. He used an e-mail address of a private spanish hospital. Creative. Obviously I sent nothing, explaining to him that in normal conditions I travel with my money and vice versa and so I was not going to send my money to visit Sevilla without me. The thing finished in this way.
15 days later I received a request on my website for a visit in my surgery. The request came from a woman with a Spanish name. I did not reserve any visit and I never had other attempts of intrusion (if that was an intrusion). I hope it helps you to sleep better

 

Thank you for the compliment Tony, but I have a friend in Italy, that has some nice government connections that ought to be very effective. We'll see what happens...

Regards, Alberto

 

Of what use is this? Affirming that "yes, scams can & do happen even on FChat"? We all know this....or should....yet if you have specific information that would help to prevent such a scam of an FChatter...why not simple list it and leave the 'gossip' to others? You are the historian after-all. Best, Jack

 

EMILIO is back :
https://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/1123013864.htm?ca=1_s

 

The evil Dr. Donizzetti...

I am certain the real culprit is someone else.

Regards, Alberto
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I think he means this

 

Thank you Patrick, but what does p3/4 have to do with the Dino...?

Regards, Alberto

 

See below.

 

Patrick, still don't understand, as Marcel may or may not be implying the good

Dottore Donizzetti, whom we all know his name is being used by someone else.

My only purpose of posting the Docs. is to show what this wiseguy goes at lenghts to
in order to take your money and not provide you with a car.

The proof is in the pudding, not speculation. Call the seller in Italy and see how it goes.
Here: 0039-3314017854, he even has whatsapp.

He will tell you to deposit 10 K Eu via www.schneider-trans.com, google it, and decide if it is a good option to send your $ to.

After, tell us about your adventures, who knows, he might be for real...

Regards, Alberto

 

what worries (no infuriates) me is that this scumbag gets away with it. What idiot would deposit money in his bank account when they wouldn't know him if they walked past him in the street.....its defies belief.

 

I recall reading a number of threads about this one - a few people got very heated about it and really quite personal. Genuine or not, at least it exists and there is no doubt about its ownership.

What I find strange about Emilio is this: if he is trying to sell / take deposits on a car he does not own on the strength of an advert on the 'net, why has he chosen that particular colour, which is by no means universally loved? I should have thought he would have done a lot better to use photos of a red one.

 

NOT GENUINE. PERIOD.

No doubts about its ownership? Seriously? Would you kindly send me your docs, passport, etc. on your car, and I will perform the same three card Monte trick...

Call him on the colour choice

Regards, Alberto

PS. It is not Emilio selling the car, if you have not figured that out yet...

 

You have misread my post. I quoted Patrick's post which made reference to the Glickenhaus P3/4, about which there has been considerable debate as to its provenance. As far as I am aware, nobody disputes that he owns it.

I was not suggesting that there is anything genuine about the advert for the green Dino, merely commenting that a scammer looking to take deposits on a non- existent car would be more successful if he chose a more popular colour.

 

This thread got sidetracked by Patrick's "I think he means this" comment (with the implied "he" being Marcel) but no link appeared to whatever the "this" was when I tried it. I was pretty sure that both Patrick's original comment (and Marcel's) referred to the Glickenhaus P3/4 thread.

Marcel's point was simply that the Italian Dino would not have been the first big scam on FCHAT.

Here is the link to the consolidated Glickenhaus P3/4 "0846" thread, as posted by Global Moderator El Wayne (L. Wayne Ausbrooks) on FCHAT, including an opening summary post regarding the controversy:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4/423520-one-only-0846-debate-thread.html

"The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim Glickenhaus seems to get a pass from major publications whenever they publish a story about him or his cars. Is it because the magazines (or the authors) fear he will sue them if they dare to raise questions about provenance? Or, is it a fear of something else? His father, Seth Glickenhaus, was a "Wall Street money manager," and Jim has a personal net worth estimated at $200 million - he probably claims his net worth is much more than that, consistent with his claims about his "P3/4."

 

When I clicked on "this" in Patrick's post, it took me to a website all about the Glickenhaus car, hence my assumption that it would be clear that I was not referring to the green Dino when I said the ownership was undisputed, even though the provenance clearly is. Actually, to say that the provenance is disputed is the understatement of the year, if not the century - it is truly amazing that so much energy has been expended by so many of that particular argument!!

Back to the green Dino . . .

 

One last thing about the Glickenhaus "P3/4."

As per the Wikipedia entry about the Ferrari P sports racing cars (they never print anything that isn't 100% true, right???),

"0846 no longer exists. Its number was cancelled by Ferrari after it was decided by the factory to discard the chassis to the Ferrari scrapyard due to its previous accident history and fire damage sustained at Le Mans, 1967."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_P

 

No. I do not.

Marcel Massini