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Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by FiveSigma, Oct 22, 2020.
You crack me up! Let me guess, you have shares there too!!!!
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Faced with a $19K repair bill, I would try this first.
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My 360 apparently had developed an oil leak last time I had it in for a major (indy). He said it wasn't noticeable because it had just dripped on the underbody tray so far. Some labor, new seal, maybe it was like... a couple or a few hundred $ total I think?
Long story short: if you were my brother, my bank account would have an extra zero on it.
Back on topic, Ray’s advice is extremely sound. Not casting doubts on anyone’s experience, expertise of analysis at your Ferrari dealer, but in the end it’s almost a matter of common sense: big claims need big proof, all the more so if you haven’t seen oil ever escaping your car anywhere.
Sincerety is always subject to proof without hassle, and endures. If there’s a leak, namely one that requires such serious and expensive repairs, the dealer should be more than happy to provide you with all information you require until you’re comfortable to trust the assessment you’re being given.
From my experience, Ferrari dealers do exactly that. When I had a similar issue with my 458’s brakes, they took all the time and patience in the world to show and explain it to me as if I were a 6 year old. I felt reassured and taken care of. The situation, due to my dealer’s posture during the affair, was one that ended up building trust between both parties:
1) Due to their more than candid approach, I trusted their judgement.
2) They on the other hand know I’m the kind of customer that asks for proof and when convinced, entrust them with the job no matter the cost, instead of cutting corners by skipping interventions and/or install sub-standard equipment and then blame the dealer or the car to friends or social media if anything goes wrong in the future, like a malfunction or an accident.
In my book, that’s how it should be. That’s how a Ferrari dealer should approach you and deal with the matter. If you agree, don’t stop until you feel comfortable. If you don’t manage to feel comfortable at all, ask for a second opinion, either at a different official Ferrari dealer, or at a reputed independent specialist. Better still: find out where Ray lives and drop the car at his doorstep. Care to make it interesting? 20 bucks say Ray ends up fixing it for under 50
First, I cannot add to Ray's responses.
I can tell you that I and my Ferrari buddies and I all use the same and very reputable Ferrari dealer with no issues.
Unfortunately, human error can occur. To my point, one of us has a lift in their garage. Frequently his Speciale is "up" so he can use his daily driver. He noticed some oil on the under tray a day or so after he brought it back from its yearly service. After taking off the under tray, it was apparent that they didn't tighten the drain plug correctly! Mind you, this is an award winning service center that also has a winning Challenge car that they maintain.
Net: an oil leak may just be something very simple.
Years ago I had a 550 Maranello and the AC stopped blowing cold. Took it to my local Indy, who had a good reputation. Two days later he calls me and says the entire AC unit is toast and parts alone would be $7500, and quite a bit of labor (but hadn’t priced that out yet). I told him to forget it I’ll sell the car (I lied) and took it to the Ferrari dealer.
They said a “sensor” was broken and the total repair was $250. AC worked fine after that.
There are incompetent and/or crooked people everywhere.
Haha.. great post and thanks! You said it; that's exactly how the dealership should handle things. They should be more than happy to walk you through exactly what the issue is and how and why it needs to be addressed in a manner which would result in a $20K repair bill and - from what I can gather - completely tearing apart the motor (something I definitely would not recommend doing on a low mileage Ferrari motor if it can be avoided).
Even the best of us overlook things. I am highly focused on details, but sometimes I screw things up.
Two recent events which standout in my mind are these:
On my Toyota Pickup motor, on the back of the cylinder head, there is this crazy cast iron plate, which serves to cool exhaust gases (which are being re-burned via the EGR system). On my truck, the previous owner snapped two of the five bolts off back there. So I had to weld a nut on what was left of the bolt shaft and extract them. Then I installed Titanium studs and used nuts to hold the plate on. Somehow during my upgrade, I inadvertently forgot to tighten down one of the 5 nuts. This might not have been too terrible, but I used RTV sealant and it had dried with one nut not fully applying torque on the corner of the cast iron plate. The result was a very tiny coolant leak back there. Ugh. I was able to add more RTV around the stud and get everything properly sealed, but still... forgetting to chinch down a nut??? Come on Ray!
And then this week.. this happened (video below). So yeah... despite the best efforts, mistakes do occur:
You have to be careful using some of those products. Usually the engine oil one works by causing the rubber seals to swell up from a chemical reaction.
The only two additives I ever use are Marvel Mystery oil in the fuel system / engine oil - but I don't know if I would ever use them on a Ferrari. I have used them on old motors in an effort to clean and lubricate the valve train for example.
The other one that is quite handy is Alum-a-seal. I normally don't put it in just as a matter of course, but if you end up with a serious coolant leak (and you are far from home), it can definitely save your ass. I have used it on older cars when a radiator starts to fail. I know a lot of my friends that used to race in the ITC class used to just dump it into their cooling systems as a preventative measure in case of a coolant leak on the track. The stuff works amazingly well to seal leaks.
Each to his own. I've used Barr products for over 45 years on about 15 different cars that I've owned. When I first bought my 360 Spider F1, the hydraulic tappets were noisy. I pour in some Marvel Mystery oil and drove around for about 300 miles. The noise was gone. I also have a beater '92 Volvo 940 Turbo that has 196,000 miles on the odo. I've replaced the battery, alternator, turbo, radiator, A/C compressor, water pump and timing belt many times over the past 25 years, but not a single drop of oil from any of the oil seals due to using Barr on every other oil change. Lots of oil seepage from wearing gaskets though. The Volvo is still running today.
It all depends on your comfort level. A Ferrari engine is not any different that a Mercedes, Porsche, Volvo or a Chevy engine. I wish the OP best of luck in resolving his problem, but $19,000 for oil leak repair is beyond ludicrous.
Yeah, I just put some Marvel Mystery oil in my pickup truck. The motor is right, but it has a slight valve train noise (which is typical with Toyota 22RE motors). But I am curious if it will have any effect after a few thousand miles.
I remember once on one of my motorcycles, I had a strange issue where I couldn't shift into N from 1st or 2nd (up or down). Nothing I did corrected it. Then I switched to Motul 300V and the problem vanished immediately.
I agree with you that - for the most part - there's not all that much difference between a Ferrari V8 and a small box chevy motor when it comes to some of these areas.
Ray-Got to tip my hat to you yet again. You have a keen eye and mind for cars, and a passion.
Not all mechanics have these attributes. And to be fair, a lot of F car owners don’t put much mileage on the cars. As a result the average service center performs the typical oil change service and maybe the occasional fluids change, and not much else.
Also since I’ve used a few independent shops, while they were more cost conscious and more open to actually repairing/ rebuilding parts such as an alternator, they made sloppy mistakes too. Not refitting wheel liners or interior trim pieces properly, missing screws and washers, some I found in the carpets.
I like your approach of cleaning the bottom of the engine, maybe the top too near the engine oil reservoir, and then driving the car and inspecting to see the exact source of the leak.
Also interested to know if the car is kept outside in freezing weather. Do extreme temperature changes lead to oil leaks .
They also make a UV dye kit which is very effective at pinpointing oil leaks.
You don't say!!!??? That is pretty smart and novel!
Just hope you don't come to find something like this
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