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Cylinder head gasket

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by Ewan, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. wrxmike

    wrxmike F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Mar 20, 2004
    5,343
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    Michael
    The free and impartial advice on this "chat" re the cylinder head question comes from a number of sources; 2 professional Ferrari mechanics ( 1 of whom has written a regular technical column in an International Ferrari magazine ) and a member who has owned V12 Ferrari's since the 1970's and has rebuilt many 365/400 series cars ie; Daytona, GTC/4 , 400 & 365.

    No professional mechanic with the customers best interests at heart would simply remove the heads from a Colombo v12 without first doing basic diagnostics - leakdown test, check for combustibles in the coolant and then replacing the O rings on the oil feed risers.
     
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  2. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,149
    Berkeley, CA
    Full Name:
    Brian Brown
    Having had multiple heads off of 400i motors, I can tell you that it is highly unlikely that the coolant in the oil is from a leaking head gasket. The coolant passages and oil passages are very far from each other on the head/block. The 400i motor has a know issue with the oil filter tube o-rings, which is much more likely to cause the problem. Unless those and the waterpump seals have both been recently replaced (correctly, especially the waterpump), then I would not even think about replacing the head gaskets.
     
  3. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    318
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    That's probably the best advice for Ewan. I would add that, as Roger pointed out, somehow we have to agree with our mechanic (even if he is wrong...). Restoring a Ferrari is by no mean a worry-free project and things do go wrong, in those circumstances if the mechanic was forced by the owner to work in a way he did not want to, that's a very uneasy situation.

    So, let's get back to Ewan original post: his mechanic is planing to remove the cylinder heads,
    As long as the mechanic has (or is ready to build) the head removal tool, both head will be properly removed and, for sure, a lot of beneficial work can be performed in the engine (sodium exhaust valves, valve stems, etc...). Obviously plenty of gaskets and O-rings will be replaced, including the infamous ones (filters riser). While they are at it they should also replace the timing chain. And obviously at the end of the process valve clearance will be adjusted which is a huge bonus for these cars.

    This can be performed without removing the engine, so 10.000€ (+/-50%)? For sure, this expense is probably not needed for the kind of problem Ewan is facing, but if properly done, why not? An overhaul can make sense on a 57.000miles engine.

    Please take this advice for what it is: as I've previously said that's not what I would do on my own car!
     
  4. Ewan

    Ewan Karting

    Jul 5, 2015
    129
    Dorset, UK
    The plan is for this to be done with the engine in-situ, and the garage has the equipment to do it. In fact, only a year back they did this on their own 412. But as you say, no doubt there’ll be plenty of “while we’re here” jobs to add on. On balance, a top end engine refresh won’t be a bad thing, and given that for many years the car sat stationary (near as matters) in a huge collection I’m hoping the physical improvements from this work will out weigh the short-term financial pain. If I end up with the engine running more smoothly, powerfully, reliably and with good oil pressure, I’ll be happy.

    In the meantime, I’ve chanced upon a colour I really like. So when’s it’s back from the mechanics and goes to the body shop for a strip, restoration and repaint, I may finally know what colour to specify. Here’s the picture:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  5. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,254
    Canada
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    Newman
    Why not pull the engine to do it properly?
     
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  6. Ewan

    Ewan Karting

    Jul 5, 2015
    129
    Dorset, UK
    If it comes to it, they will. But they have the tools that allow them (hopefully, and all being well) to leave it in, which should be the most cost effective way to achieve the desired result.

    If the engine does end up out, doubtless there’ll be even more “while we here” jobs!

    I’ll call them tomorrow and see what the news on progress is. Possibly even get some pics.
     
  7. Schumi

    Schumi Formula Junior
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    Jun 5, 2002
    688
    Missouri
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    Daren
    A complete color change? What color is it now?
     
  8. Ewan

    Ewan Karting

    Jul 5, 2015
    129
    Dorset, UK
    Currently it’s dark blue. It was originally brown, but after about 6 years of ownership the original purchaser was bored, so had the Ferrari dealer paint it blue. So the current paint is about 35 years old and well past it’s best. So I have the opportunity to change.
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,820
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    And while the motor is being fixed it can go to the body shop.

    Removing seriously stuck heads in the car is never a fun job.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,820
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    And this is how Ferraris have the reputation they have.
     
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  11. Ewan

    Ewan Karting

    Jul 5, 2015
    129
    Dorset, UK
    A quick update to amuse/infuriate (and hopefully please) earlier thread contributors. After another long chat with the mechanic, we've decided to change the water pump seal and the O rings, then flush and refill the coolant system and oil system (plus fit new filters), and then run the car to see what happens. In real terms this is at little cost, and if it happens to solve the problem, happy days! And if it doesn't, and we have to tackle the CHG, so be it, and we are not really any worse off as these jobs would have been done anyway.The mechanic is not totally confident this will be the final solution, but it's certainly worth a go. Fingers crossed!
     
  12. roger21

    roger21 Karting

    Aug 13, 2015
    238
    France
    Full Name:
    Stéphane
    :) Fingers crossed!!
     
  13. Al Campbell

    Al Campbell Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Nov 22, 2013
    411
    Australia
    Happy to hear that your mechanic is willing to try the O'rings on the tubes under the oil filter housing first. There is a very good chance this is the problem & hopefully it will solve your issues.

    The water pump will not cause oil/water mixing (unless housing is split) as there is a drain hole in the bottom of the pump between the two seals. If the oil seal is leaking oil will drain out this hole or if the coolant seal is leaking coolant will drain out the same hole.

    Hope your problem is sorted with the least amount of expense.

    Cheers,
    Al
     
  14. Temerian

    Temerian Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 17, 2014
    144
    Manhattan
    Full Name:
    Rick Temerian
    On a totally unrelated topic- The car in the photo looks really good without the side marker lights! Pondering a change when I repaint...
     
  15. Ewan

    Ewan Karting

    Jul 5, 2015
    129
    Dorset, UK
    Interestingly, even though mine is a UK car (which therefore didn’t need the additional large and ugly side repeaters), it does have them. The first was owne an American who lived in London, and after a few years of ownership he decided to take the car to New York. Therefore he had to have the repeaters fitted. When he bought the car back to London he left them in, so they’ve been there ever since. But I shall be removing them as part of the repaint work.
     
  16. Schumi

    Schumi Formula Junior
    Owner

    Jun 5, 2002
    688
    Missouri
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    Daren
    That is the sensible solution that was suggested by at least two experts here with the same logic. I don't know why you would think following that advice would either amuse or infuriate anyone on here - a little odd as you came here for help, you got it, and now you're following it. As far as I've seen everyone on this section wants to help others with these great cars. I hope the simple solution solves your problem
     
  17. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula Junior

    Sep 22, 2014
    958
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Hi Ewan - Just a note to your mechanic, not wanting to suck eggs or anything, but when you order the O rings, get them with the part numbers on the bags.

    I got mine from Superformance with no part numbers provided and as there is such a tiny difference in the two, its difficult to determine which is which if unmarked and Im guessing the wrong way around isn't going to help your situation!
     
  18. Part Time

    Part Time Formula Junior
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    Dec 16, 2013
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    Gary Shore
  19. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,149
    Berkeley, CA
    Full Name:
    Brian Brown
    Quite often the weep hole will be clogged (corrosion/old dried coolant), or I have even see them intentionally plugged (to fix the leak!). If the water pump seal is leaking with the weep hole clogged/plugged up, then cooling system pressure (what ever your radiator cap set to open, .9 bar/14 PSI typically) will push coolant past the oil seal into the sump.

    Even if the oil seal is brand new, it is just a lip seal that only seals in one direction (to keep oil from coming out of the engine). Sometimes the oil seal is not driven into the housing far enough or the wrong width seal is used, blocking the weep hole.

    You can insert a small piece of wire (safety wire, etc) into the hole, to make sure that it is not blocked.
    Regards,
    Brian
     
  20. Al Campbell

    Al Campbell Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Nov 22, 2013
    411
    Australia
    But isn't the original post about oil getting into the coolant but no sign of coolant in the oil?
     
  21. Ewan

    Ewan Karting

    Jul 5, 2015
    129
    Dorset, UK
    That's correct - there's definitely oil getting into the coolant, as there is a lot of emulsified stuff appearing in the radiator, even after repeated flushes.
     
  22. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,149
    Berkeley, CA
    Full Name:
    Brian Brown
    My bad, I thought that the original post said that there was emulsion on the oil cap. If there is oil in the coolant then the first place to look is oil filter tube o-rings. Then head gaskets. While you are at it you could do a full engine rebuild. Sometimes it is hard to know when to stop.
     
  23. Ewan

    Ewan Karting

    Jul 5, 2015
    129
    Dorset, UK
    A quick update.

    It took a jolly long time and multiple flushes to finally rid the cooling system of the accumulated emulsion, but we got there in the end. The O rings were changed, as discussed above, along with various other jobs that were on the general list. And so far, after 150 miles of driving, there’s no sign of any oil appearing in the water (or vice versa). It may be a bit early to draw final conclusions, but it’s looking good so far. And even my heating system works now, so demisting the screen on a damp UK day is once again possible.

    So, now for the next big one. Today is the day it goes for a full bare metal strip and repaint. I’ve been building to this for about 2 years, so it’s great to finally get this part of the restoration under way. When it goes back together it’ll have new front and rear screens, new rubber seals, new badges, and the additional US side repeaters will be omitted. Exciting times ahead.

    Still not fully certain on the colour, but 90% decided on Marrone.
     
  24. Nathan76

    Nathan76 Formula Junior

    Jun 20, 2013
    340
    Leicestershire, UK
    Hi Ewan where have you sourced the rear screen. Just about to re spray mine and can't find a replacement rear screen anywhere
    Thanks

    Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
     
  25. Arvid

    Arvid Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 28, 2012
    584
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Arvid Andersson
    Hi Nathan, I recently purchased new rear screen from Mr Fiat. Very original looking reproduction with the important invisible heat threads and correct thickness glass.
     
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