Cycling & Mountain Biking

I have no agenda, just curious if my ideas ring true. The mountain bike industry from my small window appears to be generating ways to sell a new bike to their clientele every 2 to 3 years. I find it annoying but I have benefitted from all of the ongoing developments so it’s all good. The disc brake works and works very well. During the mountain bike’s transition to disc, there was several steps starting with hydraulic rim brakes from Magura, they added a pound to the weight of the bike. Then the disc showed up with adapter kits for older bikes. Shimano then fought with the industry, to try and impose their proprietary disc to hub design. Gladly they have lost. During this time period I stuck to a hard tail with v brakes and was very happy for many years during all of the transitions.

I have not follow the trends with road bikes. I am not surprised how they first approach the idea. They are probably “testing “ the market. From my experience road bike brakes are used differently than mountain bike brakes. This is a big topic so I am going to leave it at that.


The rubbing statement was one of the selling features to convince mountain bikers to make the switch to disc. I should have stated that more clearly. During the 90’s the propriatry wheel was sold to the public. The industry then introduces the disc brake soon after and needed to convince the public that a new bike was needed. If you get dirt on the rims they will scatch over time but on a road but it probably will not amount to anything. I do not know what a typical roadie has for equipment. Mountain bikers typically have one bike and a back up if they are lucky. I have three generations of mountain bikes. My problem is the industry has made the sub groups of equipment proprietary to the frame that they are purchased on. From my three mountain bikes which are all top of the line custom spec’d bikes, almost nothing is transferable from bike to bike. Wheels have different axles sizes, headsets are different, bb30, English, Italian bottom brackets. From my perspective I am happy to have the industry try various developments and I mean try. I will continue purchase new bikes periodically as newly designed equipment is perfected rather than upgrade components frequently.

I have Super Record on a Dogma 60.1. I also have Formula R1 Racing hydraulic disc brakes on an Ibis Mojo SLR WTF. The super record brakes have a reliable silkiness to them. A totally smooth progression that is undeniably perfect. The best disc brakes, XTR, MT8 and the Racing R1’s all have excellent modulation but it does not match the super records linear progression. The hydraulic brakes will ramp up pressure over the pull of the brake leaver where as the SR’s have a linear incremental increase in pressure throughout the pull. Until a disc brake can match the style of braking of super record on a road bike there will be no desire to switch from experienced riders. I am sure the road bike industry is aware of this. I am also curious why it has not been tried or if it has and failed to achieve any market penetration. From what you are saying it is both, but primarily a strong resistance from the upper end of the market.

“The people selling such bikes are just out to make a quick buck and riders will be stuck with "design mistakes". This is a still-born idea. I would wait until those knuckleheads realize their folly and fix their designs before wasting my money on them.”

This is dead on. The mountain bike industry has been doing this since as long as I can remember. The number of expensive bikes that are completely out of date wasting away in basements could probably cure world hunger. Today we have three wheel sizes for mountain bikes and an option for a 4 inch wide tire. Really?

 

Another spectacular shot… you guys look ripped. I think 133 lbs is perfect for a climber, and I see it's paying off for you. I was already 145-150 lbs 30 years ago, sadly much heavier nowadays so I need to trim the pounds. Criteriums can be boring and a little hazardous but I guess they're easier to organize and more accessible for the spectators. They were common and I wasn't keen on them either. But I see bike racing has made some good progress on this continent over the years.

I think cars and bikes often interest the same people… the thrill of letting loose maybe, getting into a rolling rhythm, like you can go one forever. LOL. Looks like your host has some nice classics. The TR is a beautiful beast but maybe it was a bit expensive to maintain.

It has just begun to resemble Spring here so hopefully I can start to put some miles on and replenish my vit. D… maybe try to take off another 10 lbs as well. I've been doing some short sessions on my bike trainer and it seems to really help.

 

Racing superweek up here in July? the Giro di Burnaby ? Presented by Appia Developments uses a 348 spider as the lead race official's car . Burnaby's central to some great rides.

 

That's some good climbing!

maybe take a look at this study;
PezCycling News - What's Cool In Pro Cycling : Toolbox: Cramming Training Load

 

disagree - living at the top of an 3-4km 8% grade, I'm braking from 60+km/h to a stop a half-dozen times a day, or more, often in miserable conditions. no matter how clean my rims and pads are at the start of a wet winter ride, I'm grinding rims at the end. I'd much rather replace discs but after some of the cross racing experiences I've seen, not sure I like the way disc pads can fail either.

 

The terrain in the GTA tends to be relatively flat or rolling so I mainly brake for hard corners and traffic but my brake pads still wear out fairly quickly because my training route features many corners, made worse by Winter roads that are often wet and gritty. I only use aluminium braking surfaces in the Winter and I keep the rims clean.

I understand you are basing your comments on your daily 3-4 km of (downhill?) 8% grade, which is not typical of most people's daily ride. But be that as it may, there is no free lunch. If you go out in the rain and descend a continuous 3-4 km at 8% grade, you have to brake often, harder and longer than most other people would on their rides so you will wear out your brake pads a lot more quickly. Metal fatigue occurs when it is stressed under high temperatures.

As for your wheels, are you using carbon fibre or aluminium rims? Try pads that wear faster and replace them more often. IMO, it's physics, if your pads wear more easily than your rim's braking surface, the pads will wear instead of the rims. The energy dissipated from removing material from your pads is what slows your bike down.

So I am not arguing against your points. Depending on how much you weigh with your bike, you will wear out equipment at a higher rate than most people would, given your daily riding conditions. There you go.

 

yeap - I understand the physics. it is what it is. I stick to alloy braking surfaces, have gone through a few pairs of DA C24's and now on Ksyrium's for training. Not sure what wheels I'll race on this summer yet.

With missing a week plus of riding the last 28 days, Strava shows 21.5km's vertical. 75kg's, 50yo, Madone 6 /w Di2.

 

You guys are already lucky to have a much longer riding season.

I like Campy but Mavics and DAs are also good wheels, maybe you can try some deeper/differential rim heights and new treads/wider tires. What do the competition use?

 

Competition's on pretty much everything, but none ride the hills I'm on daily. As you say, worth it for the year long riding season and better training!

I stay away from Campy - I have enough challenges speaking Italian with the Ferrari mechanic, don't want to go there for the bike. It's just a tool to do the job, not artwork

 

Hmm, your aversion to the Italian language doesn't strike me as particularly pragmatic if you're trying to pick the best tool for the job.

All the same, I agree with your preference for a "tool to do the job" but while Campy equipment do look better, they also work better. Your Shimano C24s are OK but are technically pedestrian. They also use plain steel bearings like the lowest grade of Campy bearings. While high-end Campagnolo wheels in the same price range have standard much smoother-running and more durable ceramic bearings.

Proof of the pudding is where Shimano spends its money, pushing OEM gear on built-up bikes rather than promoting upgrade equipment. They are mostly a marketing machine and strive on volume.

 

mostly valid arguments - I consider a few factors for gear; $ for speed, reliability, and ease of support. Shimano and Trek is like the corvette of the racing world; simple, reasonably fast, and everyone can support it here. I've thoroughly abused my C24's and they've survived. And I've sworn at Shimano more than a few times as well for cutting costs for silly reasons, and doubt they're alone. DA hubs have never been the weak point for my reliability.

As an old nerd, the aesthetics aren't relevant for a tool. And besides, how can you resist the digital cone bearing adjustment system(what does that even mean? ) Shimano Technologies Explained: Cup & Cone - YouTube (I get it - it's cheaper to produce cheap marketing videos than to use more expensive bits in thousands of wheels)

If the Pro's could only win consistently on Campy - I'd be with you, but that's not the economics I see. If I had a dedicated mechanic and/or sponsors, I'd have very different gear criteria.

 

I also find your arguments partially valid. It is somewhat more expensive to use Campy gear but similarly high end Dura Ace gear are as expensive. It is also true that you'll need some special Campy tools. But reliability is not an issue with Campy gear. If you worry about parts it may be because BC is further away from Europe. In the GTA and SW Ontario there is significant ethnic and non-ethnic Campagnolo patronage, so access to parts / service is good and is even more so in Québec where cycling is a much bigger deal and closer to Europe. BC is closer to Japan and the US, hence Shimano has an advantage. Your analogy of Shimano and Trek being the corvette equivalent in cycling is apt although Trek could do with better representation around the GTA.

As for your view on aesthetics, form follows function and Campagnolo has had much longer experience developing both. Tests conducted by magazines verify the quality and performance of Campy gear. They also don't release new products unless they are really happy about them. Was there some item in particular that you are not happy with, aside from their looking too aesthetic for your liking? It's kind of surprising to have this opinion come from someone who owns a 348, one of the best-looking decent sports cars on the road.

To put to bed your doubts about pro riders not performing well on Campy gear, here is empirical data, not personal opinion, unsubstantiated claims or innuendo.

During the 2013 season, there were 22 teams on the Pro Tour lineup, 5 were on Campagnolo - that's 22.7% representation by teams. Those teams were:

AG2R LA MONDIALE
ASTANA PRO TEAM
LOTTO BELISOL
MOVISTAR TEAM
TEAM EUROPCAR​

At the end of the season, if you examine the total points won by riders on Campy equipment vs. all the riders:

- in the top 10 riders = 37.98% of the points.
- in the top 50 riders = 27.10% of the points
- in the top 100 riders = 25.91% of the points
- of all riders (228) with points =24.94%

...vs. 22.7% in team representation. ​

Also notice the highest points advantage of the Campy-equipped riders were in the top rider groups. These numbers are very significant because they span the whole season and involve the best riders in the world. These figures all derived from UCI data on the 2013 UCI World Tour.

Finally, as a major gauge of big team performance, if we look at the Tour de France, 2 Campy-equipped riders/teams took 3 of the 7 classifications plus 2nd place in the GC. That's 28.6% representation over all classifications if you only count 2 riders in spite of the 3 classifications won. This exceeds the 22.7% representation in overall teams (5 out of 22).

Another rider, Rui Costa, won the Men's 2013 UCI World Road Cycling Championships on Campy equipment. Third place was won by a Alejandro Valverde, also on Campy gear (same bike as Costa).

So anyway, I wouldn't worry about the performance or prettiness of Campy gear. Their riders did well and their gear worked at least as well or better than the competition's. So just pick the gear that works better for you.

 

Love to hear your input on pro gear, what you do for a job ( Im jealous!) and the knowledge you have on the sport. Thanks Sherpa23!


Got to ride 47 miles yesterday with a good friend, a cat3 racer local to me. It was him, 2 other guys who ride and arent serious, and me. I have never raced or specifically trained for riding, I just enjoy it.


After the first 15 miles, the other two riders bailed due to the time/plans. My friend asked if I wanted to up the riding pace. I happily agreed and did my best to stay on his rear tire. He was surprised I managed as well as I did with maintaining our speed. The only time he dropped me was from a dig off a light. I jumped out in front for about 15 seconds mashing away only to have him freight train past me like it was nothing!

 

We agree! I think I'll head out for a ride in the rain and wind on my Ultrega and Mavics!

counterpoints:
Lies, damned lies, and statistics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

10 of 18 World Pro tour teams are on Shimano groupsets, 6 are on Shimano wheels (3 on Campy wheels) - can't be that awful.
2014 Pro Team Bikes

and my strong belief;
It's Not About the Bike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
any pro can win on any quality equipment (ignoring P&R references)

Only the mechanics know how many rebuilds have to be done ever week.

 

Good for you.

I lived in BC before and frequent rain/drizzle is a fact of life there. Does your training bike have fenders or do you mind the spray? I like riding in the rain (assuming it's not cold) because it feels so smooth and the rains keeps me from overheating. What I hate is having to clean up and re-lube all the exposed running gear afterwards.

Now, about lies… statistics. As a former medical researcher, I am very familiar with the proper application of statistics. Our world can't function at our level of science without relying on statistical analysis. Stats are legitimately used everyday. Here's an excerpt from what Wikipedia has to say about the various forms of "Misuse of statistics":

"…
2.1 Discarding unfavorable data
2.2 Loaded questions
2.3 Overgeneralization
2.4 Biased samples
2.5 Misreporting or misunderstanding of estimated error
2.6 False causality
2.7 Proof of the null hypothesis
2.8 Confusing statistical significance with practical significance
2.9 Data dredging
2.10 Data manipulation
2.11 Non-enduring class fallacies
2.12 Other fallacies…"
​

Ironcally, your dismissal of my analysis would fall into the category of "Overgeneralization" by seeming to imply all statistics are lies, without providing any proof. I analyzed the 2013 Pro Tour rider points data in direct response to your concerns that Campy gear is just "artwork" and your claim that the pros don't win on Campy gear. I can quote your exact words if you like. You can look up the 2013 World Pro Tour data here to verify.

As for the interesting 2014 pro team bike weblink, your understanding is slightly incorrect re the wheels - 6 teams are on Shimano (Dura Ace) but actually 5 and not 3 teams are on Campagnolo wheels (Fulcrum is a Campagnolo brand name, all Fulcrums are made by Campagnolo). So Campagnolo wheels may be even more popular than their groupsets, when you consider there are many more brands of wheels used (7 if you consider Fulcrum + Campagnolo count as 1 brand) to choose from, whereas there are only 3 brands of groupsets.

GROUPSETS - 10 teams on Shimano, 5 on Campagnolo and 3 on SRAM.
WHEELS - 6 teams on Shimano, 5 on Campagnolo, 2 on Zipp, 2 on Mavic, 1 on Corima, 1 on Bontrager and 1 on Vision.

BTW, I didn'y say Shimano wheels are awful I said I prefer Campy gear but that …DA (Shimano Dura Ace) are also good wheels.

Well, I haven't read this book by Lance Armstrong but your Wikipedia says the full title of the book is actually "It's Not About the Bike: My Journey Back to Life" and it's more about Lance's journey from having malignant testicular cancer to his first winning of the Tour de France in 1999 and the birth of his first child.

Still, I understand what you mean, about "any pro can win on any quality equipment". I would agree but with an added qualification of "…depending on conditions". I think you and I would agree there are races and race conditions which are so dynamic that they tend to level out the playing field with regard to equipment and then there are also race conditions where every second counts. And situations where a rider is simply trying to deliver his/her very best performance as in TTs and breakaways. The latter conditions do put a premium on how you set up your equipment because you are away from the group and just dealing with the conditions.

That's interesting.

Do you realize Dura Ace C50 and C75 wheels use hidden spoke nipples? So if you need to adjust them, you would have to deflate and remove the tire - but after you remount them the balance may well be off again, because of the tire. Is this sensible? NO. Zipp wheels also used to have hidden nipples but they now offer exposed nipples. It's the same with some Mavic wheels. Yes, it's handy to have support from team mechanics.

 

I just got this Salsa Spearfish 2 last Friday that replaced my stolen Santa Cruz Heckler, finally had time early this morning to take it out on its maiden voyage. 8 miles covered today despite the headwind. Gotta purge the Blerch somehow. Eventually I'll be back to my 25 to 30 mile loop.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

no fender, I'm wet, as long as can stay warm.

I accept my aversion is mostly emotional

 

Well, you're tougher than I am then. I will finish a ride in the rain and enjoy it but I won't start it in the rain. My training bikes also have full-time fenders. If it's already raining I'll do a session on my indoor trainer instead.

My current training bike has CRUD fenders on it and they are brilliant, somewhat to my surprise. I was a bit skeptical at first but needed something lighter than the Bluemels I used before. The Cruds are only 180 gm, all plastic and they can be perfectly adjusted to just skim over your racing frame/tires.

A conscious emotional (attachment) is arguably preferable to clinical submission.

 

ahh, fenders; another fun topic! I try and use a rear fender for group rides, but I keep breaking rear fenders, the last set snapped cleanly in half. likely a lot more flex in my seat stays than in the fenders. I got 4-5 months out of it though, so just bought a replacement. some plastic race thing, I forget.

 

Well I'm back and looking for a new bike!

I've been riding on and off on the road but really dropped off the MTB scene for a couple of years. I'm starting to look and could gladly use some help from here.

I've heard mixed reviews of 29" vs 26" wheels and this doesn't seem like a major item just personal preference. The bike/company that I always wanted to own was Rocky Mountain. Most likely going to purchase used or new 2012/2013 models. Have not decided on full suspension or a hard tail layout. It will be for mountain biking not downhill.

Any suggestions on a bike or a brand within a budget of $1500 or less.

The other question is regarding the road bike, I don't see an advantage of a carbon frame at the level I ride (nowhere near competitive) so would it make any sense to go that route considering the price jump? I like the look of this bike, Trek Madone 3.1 56cm For Sale

 

Yeah, a rear fender would keep your training buddies happy but man, are you hard on your equipment! Good luck with the plastic race thing.

 

So I had a very close encounter this morning. Almost got hit by a deer on my ride to work. 5:30am, just sat back in the saddle after a pull when I hear hooves crashing on the pavement. The buck came running out of someone's drive way and I missed it by about 5 feet. Said some very choice cowboy words.

 

I would suggest a carbon frame road bike over metal frame, unless you experience a lot of crashes. Carbon fibre bikes from legitimate makers (i.e. not clones) just seems to perform better than metal frame in all other respects. If metal frames were better, they'd be on all the top end bikes.

I haven't ridden on Trek bikes but Trek has been making top bikes for a long time. The Madone 3.1 seems to incorporate the latest design thinking and the one in the ad has upgraded wheels that are much better than the original ones for that bike.

Don't know anything about MTBs.

 

I think early morning is probably when deer are more active (less car traffic), especially this time of year. I guess a buck pulling out of a driveway is easier to avoid than a car.

 

Oh I 100% agree, just surprised that in all my years of riding it's the first encounter with a deer. I've lost count on how many rabbits and squirrels have darted out in front of me. I did hit a pigeon one day. It landed right in front of me as I was leading a break away. Swerved around it and caught it with my back tire. Almost threw me off the bike.