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Critical things to know in buying or owning a Mondial

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by snj5, Jul 31, 2008.

  1. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2013
    1,511
    Georgia Mountains US
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    David Rapalyea alias
    A couple of more observations from my experience with 1986 3.2 and about 12,000 miles. First and foremost is the weak starter switch wiring. The stock starter is plenty strong but the wires going to the solenoid are not. It is an easy and cheap fix. Bosch sells a WR1 (?) relay that will activate with the weak signal from the ignition key wiring. That relay will easily activate the stock solenoid.

    Wiper motors need exercise. They will still be weak but I run them in car washes, drive in the rain, and the more they are used the better the get. Mine have always worked when it was raining. But on dry windows still may get stuck.

    I always add eight ounces of either 2cycle oil or Marvel Mystery oil to my gas. We have mechanical fuel injection and old lines etc. A bit of slippery stuff for the entire system seemed to me a good idea. It is not as eccentric as it sounds and more then a few do this.

    The cooling system is very very complicated. As a simple precaution against blow outs, odd ball leaks and water pump leaks I totally depressurized my cooling system using 60/40 glycol mix. You can go as high as 70/30 I believe. The entire time I have had the car have not added one ounce of coolant. I live a 2000 ft elevation and have run hard in 90F temps. The only time the water temps go up is at dead idle and the fans come on at 130F which is below the boiling point of 60/40.

    Your oil cooling fan probably has seized because almost none of these cars seem run hard enough to activate it. Mine is seized. However, when the oil temp hits 230F that is a good enough warning to back off. Synthetic oil is good to at least 260F

    Speaking of oil. These engines came with synthetic/mineral mix. I do not recommend straight synthetic as I have heard you can more likely get oil seal leaks. I got a bad such leak such that it dripped on an exhaust port and smoked up through the vent grill on the engine compartment. Out of shear exasperation I added one bottle of each and every stop leak on the shelf. The smoke stopped almost immediately, and the smell entirely stopped after a few hundred miles. That was many thousands of miles ago. I still expect to need new seals but so far have not.

    All those additives were drained with my last oil change and I will add another bottle of ATP-205 re-seal. These additives are nothing more then 'plastisizers' and in some way soften and expand old seals. My only evidence is my own car. It was smoking so bad I worried it might catch fire. Don't even smell hot oil these days.

    One last thing. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE ALPHA HYDRAULIC CLUTCH COMPONENTS. They do work. And might be adequate for parades. But I am convinced they destroyed my entire clutch system at 90F and 7,700 rpms. I suspect harmonic hydraulic waves: destroyed BOTH master and slave cylinders I had installed as well as the clutch plate itself.

    Can't think of any other stuff right now. If I think of any will post again ;)
     
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  3. gsfent

    gsfent Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2009
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    Jerry
    Good post as usual!!

    1. WR-1 is the entire kit, including the relay. It is up to about $25.

    2. Wipers work much better in the rain/wet windshield. Don't even think about using in the dry. Let's face it, electrics are NOT the Ferrari's long suit!, only manufacturer that makes the British electrics look robust!!

    3. 130F for cooling fans to come on. You sure about that? Awfully low. Tstat isn't even fully open, that is about 55C. Most tstats open in the 80's C. Should be more like 190F.

    4. Synth oil can handle up to 260F as you note, but you don't want to stay there for long. Even synth oil degrades, 230-240F is about all you want to see and ideally, around 220. You want about 212 for a bit to help burn off impurities.

    Nothing posted about the Mark? Disappointed... :)

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  4. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2013
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    David Rapalyea alias
    Hi Jerry

    First, I can not type and perhaps even a bit dyslexic. My fans come on at 230F! As for the Mark VII. I want to weep like a little girl! Complete, entire, and catastrophic failure on all counts. The supercharger installation was exactly like the last two I have done on Ford Small blocks with the single exception that this one ran like crude. Really, I mean intergalactic Einsteinium relativistic Precambrian slime mold crud. Not even driveable.

    I paid the local wrench to put it back to stock. After all, half of the entire effect is the near show room look of one of the most elegant automotive designs in all of human history. THAT was a catastrophic failure. The car now uses about as much water as it does gasoline. We attribute this to various high temps experienced while trying to get the supercharger to work.

    But the horns of this particular Damaclesian dangling sword is this. THAT LOCAL WRENCH owns my original Mark VII in which I had him install a stellar 347 stroker, good street cam, and Kenne Bell positive displacement supercharge that probably runs in the mid 13 second range. Years ago I told him if he ever wanted to sell it I wanted first refusal. [The original transfer from me to him is an entire short novel itself.]

    NOW he tells me to make him an offer! Gag me with a spoon. I will probably buy it back. It would involve far less expense then this last one I spent a year and tons of money on that is now nothing more then a yard decoration. Of course the old one does not look at all show-room. Not all beat up or anything like that, and it is still as elegant as ever but it simply looks like a very good used car.

    But THEN what do I do? One thing is to simply do a complete engine and computer transplant from the old one into my show room car? After all. The show room car has a blown engine. Its actual market value is not much above scrap! Or do I simply replace the blown head gasket, or whatever is leaking water and then drive it as it could have been driven going on eighteen months ago before I got all enthusiastic about all the mods?

    One thing is for sure someone ELSE will do any subsequent work!

    But I digress. This is, after all a Mondial Forum. AND I have a Mondial question to post separately. Specifically, I have developed one hell of a low rpm accessory belt squeal. It is intermittent and responded temporarily to belt dressing. My plan of attack is simplicity itself. First, to cut off the A/C belt entirely. Bell removed the entire lead weight of the compressor itself but I just am interested in preserving both my hearing and my dignity at stop lights.

    I will ask if this can be done from under the car without removing the fender well liner? Its getting late here and I plan to compose a cogent inquiry concerning accessory belts once I refresh my Ice Beer stocks. Today I was reduced to an inexpensive but passable WalMart Merlot for about $4. Seriously. It IS a passable Merlot. Which is all one might normally expect of a Merlot in the first place!
     
  5. hank sound

    hank sound F1 Veteran

    Jan 31, 2004
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    Hank Garfield
    #29 hank sound, Feb 12, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The OEM tow eye supplied by Ferrari for the Mondial (and the Testarossa too) is too short to thread into the receiver behind the front grill.

    Our own Alden makes makes extensions for the original tow eye that allows you use it when needed.

    He now also makes the super strong "Tow Strap" that threads into your tow eye receiver and makes it possible for you to tow the car without the risk of bending your expensive and hard to replace OEM tow eye.

    On the electrical side, replacing all your relays and fuses is a great way to transform the electrical system so that everything works better. If you still have the old metal relays, they are probably as corroded on the inside as they are on the outside.

    Alden has complete relay/fuse sets too.

    The "W" connector on your fuse block is likely to heat up at a couple of connections. Alden has repair kits for that too !! :)

    Great work, mate -

    Hank
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  6. kitreid

    kitreid Karting

    Feb 7, 2012
    104
    You don't have a pic of the location do you?
     
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  8. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    2,642
    Don't know how long you've had the car, but you have to drain and replace the coolant at least every 5 years. The rust inhibitors in the coolant become depleted, then your system components will start rusting.

    If you're not inspecting your steel expansion tank regularly, I would recommend everyone siphon the coolant out of their tanks, and give it a good inspection. Remove any rust, or it will flake off, and end up blocking passages in the radiator.

    Of course you can use acids to remove the rust, but I like this water based rust remover:

    Metal Rescue Rust Remover Bath
     
  9. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 Veteran
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    Jurgen. What are 8's selling for over your way? Mines two days away from being released from 3.5 weeks in the shop....yea, she got everything haha.



    My two cents, which piggybacks 308's I suppose is the hot start issue.
     
  10. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    The main thing to know is the cost of operating the car will be about $2 per mile, excluding depreciation/appreciation. In three years you can spend as much operating the car as you did to purchase same. In six years you almost certainly will. This is largely attributable to the stratospheric cost of any spare parts and service labor, and the need to replace the rubber bands every 3 years whether you drive it or not.

    Some outrageously expensive parts:

    Tires (if you have OEM rims)
    Plug wires and extenders
    A/C parts/repairs
    Starter parts/repairs
    Window motors
    Fusebox
    Water pump
    Clutch slave cylinder
    Body panels
    Oil pressure sender
    Valves and valve shims
    Gaskets
    Distributor parts
    Labor north of $100 per hour
    Pray you never need to buy a new cylinder head

    This assumes you can get the parts ... many are NLA.

    And it's homely and slow by any standard, let alone F car standards.
     
  11. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    I will not debate your view on aesthetics, but why is it 'slow' by any standard? My research (with publicly available sources from respected publications) has shown the Mondial is on par with other comparable cars of the epoch (sans 911).
     
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  13. enzo360

    enzo360 F1 Veteran
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    Aug 1, 2004
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    Jurgen Durand
    Ken,
    here are some examples:
    The Netherlands
    Ferrari Mondial 8 74000KM AIRCO ZWITSERSE AUTO 1982 Benzine - Occasion te koop op AutoWereld.nl
    France:
    https://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/980232068.htm?ca=7_s
    Germany:
    Ferrari Mondial INSPEKTION/ZAHNRIEMEN/H-ZULASSUNG NEU als Sportwagen/Coupé in Darmstadt-Eberstadt

    Ferrari Mondial 8 Klima - Schiebedach - H-Kennzeichen als Sportwagen/Coupé in Baierbrunn b. München

    Ferrari Mondial 8 als Sportwagen/Coupé in Cremona

    Cheers
    Jurgen
     
  14. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    Yes we have all read your analysis. Fact remains, will bust a gut (or perhaps a cam belt) trying to keep up with a Mustang. The 3L cars are particularly disappointing to drive. They are all heavy cars for their size. What good is all the Ferrari flash if the horsie can't beat a pony?
     
  15. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #37 paulchua, Jun 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
    You mean a 2016 Mustang GT will be faster then a 250 GTO? So the 250 is slow then? What good is a 250 if it can't beat a pony.

    C'mom Rus, are you trolling now? Got to compare stats of when it came out, not to cars 30-35 years newer.

    I have stats tabulated from all 4 models and compared to other high end sports cars of each epoch. Each stat with fully documented source of road test.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Mondial

    Are all these magazines conspiring to inflate the Mondial's performance?

    What's funny was before I bought ALL the magazines that ever tested the Mondial's, I had assumed it was a poor performer. It wasn't until I personally went back myself and actually read the reviews, that had that "hey wait a minute" moment.

    I had read too many negative derivative articles before experiencing the Mondial first hand, all sourced from the same 2 bad reviews on the Mondial 8. It basically just snowballed from there.

    Feel free to disagree, but please provide 3rd party sourcing as I've done.
     
  16. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Why try? And who cares? It's a Mustang...
     
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  17. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #39 paulchua, Jun 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
    Russ....don't take my word for it...

    Here it is. Also just in case anybody thinks I'm just "cherry picking": all sources/reviews from one source: Car & Driver (when available*)

    *exception of Mondial t Coupe, C&D, MotorTred only examined the Cabriolet, so used R&T/as for qv - only coupe test available is from Motor Magazine, trust me - I've made it a mission to collect *EVERY* magazine test of the Mondial) -

    **Also always picked the 'highest' performing Mustang model each model year/era.

    1980 Cobra** vs 1980 Mondial 8

    1980 Mustang Cobra
    0-60 10.8
    1/4 Mile 18.2

    Source: Car & Driver
    1980 Ford Mustang Cobra ? Review ? Car and Driver

    1980 Ferrari Mondial
    0-60 9.3
    1/4 Mile 16.9

    Source: Car & Driver
    http://alexachua.com/1981_cd.pdf

    1982' GT** vs. 1982 qv

    1982 Mustang GT

    0-60 8.1
    1/4 Mile 16.2
    Source: Car and Driver (1/85)
    http://media.caranddriver.com/files/red-speed-chevrolet-camaro-z28-vs-ford-mustang-gt-pontiac-firebird-trans-am-porsche-928red-speed-specs-aug-1982.pdf

    1982 Ferrari Mondial qv Coupe

    0-60 6.4
    1/4 Mile 14.5

    Source: Motor
    http://alexachua.com/motor_oct_1982.pdf

    1986' SVO** vs. 1986' 3.2

    1986 Mustang SVO

    0-60 6.8
    1/4 Mile 15.1
    Source: Car and Driver
    http://media.caranddriver.com/files/1985-chevy-camaro-berlinetta-vs-ford-mustang-svo1985-chevrolet-camaro-v-ford-mustang.pdf

    1986 Mondial 3.2
    0-60 6.3
    1/4 Mile 14.6
    Source: Car and Driver
    http://www.alexachua.com/1987_cd.pdf

    1989' t vs. 1993' SVT Cobra**

    1993 Mustang Cobra SVT (4 model years newer btw...still slower by 1/4 mile...) - really should have used the 89 Mustang Model since it wasn't until the 'final 93' version that they introduced the SVT Cobra - but I'll throw them a bone.
    0-60 5.6
    1/4 Mile 14.7

    Source: Car and Driver
    http://media.caranddriver.com/files/1993-ford-mustang-cobra-vs-1993-pontiac-firebird-formula-1993-chevrolet-camaro-z28-1.pdf

    1989 Mondial t
    0-60 5.9
    1/4 Mile 14.2

    Source: Road and Track
    http://alexachua.com/r_t_special_1990.pdf

    In every model comparison, the Mondial is faster. Perhaps we should discuss if the Mustang out handled the Mondial?

    Here is a video of a Mondial t doing the 1/4 in 14.2 at a drag strip. (nothing to brag about circa 2017) - but for a car that started production in 1988? Almost THIRTY years ago? Context my friend...context.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1maYzWhJ0k0

    Same poster posted a personal best of 13.81 if he is to be believed.

    :)

    Which bring me to another question Russ, your posts often seem slightly backhanded toward the Mondial. Do you have any animosity for it? If so, why do you frequent this particular forum devoted to the Mondial? Is it from a pure profit motive? I've often seen your commentary come from a dealer/market based context.

    It's easy to say my 2017 Corvette will smoke a 1995 F355....hence the F355 is slow....just nothing I would ever say.
     
  18. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 Veteran
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    Ahhhh. Ok, so it's about $34K to $42K (in USD) somewhere in that range. Makes sense, but that's probably running $10K ahead of the US market (I suspect). I think a driver condition 8 is probably a $24-26K car if it's up to date on mechanicals etc. weird though, because didn't the US get allotted less cars?
     
  19. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    I don't need to provide 3rd party data, I used to own one and it was a slug even with a fresh motor, admittedly a 3 liter motor, but my wife's Jetta Diesel is sportier than that car was. I also own a 1974 BMW 2002 (albeit a turbo) that is way more fun to drive than my 80s Mondial was.

    I am a firearms dealer, not a car dealer. I don't have any car to sell although I may buy another Ferrari if I find something that piques my interest. That may even be another Mondial but I doubt it.

    I will frequent whatever forum(s) I choose.
     
  20. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Then maybe lighten up a bit.

    When life gives you lemons... there's no reason to become a lemon sucker.
     
  21. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    I am sorry, did I comment on your demeanor, style, frame of mind or attitude?

    This forum is about MONDIALS. I post what I consider to be factual comments about MONDIALS, and MONDIALS only. Good or bad. I don't use facebook and other social media but I think that kind of discussion belongs there.
     
  22. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #44 paulchua, Jun 29, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
    Russ, thanks for your background.

    I don't debate on subjective things like "fun factor." I believe you that you felt your 1974 BMW 2002 and your wife's Jetta was sportier than the Mondial.

    I've never driven a BMW 2002, but only hear heavenly things about them - so your statement is entirely reasonable to me, especially since it is over 1,000 pounds lighter than the Mondial 8. I've owned a Jetta VR6 however, and I thought that car was not very balanced - too torquey and floaty for the platform...I was glad to get rid of it - and it too had a balky shifter!

    We are all of course entitled to our opinions, facts, however, are stubborn things, and as subjectively delightful the BMW and VW are, the objective performance factors of acceleration & top speed of a Mondial 8 vs. a BMW 2002 or 1980 VW Jetta clearly fall in the Mondial's favor.

    Your thesis is simply this, that the Mondial (I don't know if you just refer to the 8) is a 'slug'

    The 1980 Jetta had a 0-60 of 12 seconds and the 1/4 at 18 seconds. Again, I do no doubt you felt it was sportier than the Mondial 8, but to say the Mondial is slow compared to the Jetta just does not pan out.

    The BMW 2002ti is on par with a 0-60 of 9.6, 1/4 of 17.1 and a top speed of 107 MPH.
    Source: Car and Driver
    http://media.caranddriver.com/files/bmw-2002-1.pdf

    I will use the infamous *worst* Road and Track review of the Mondial 8. Where they disclose that they had a faulty shifter that:

    "our car was further plagued....(by a shifter)...got us back into 2nd (gear) several times with the lever fully home its 4th gear slot. We're confident it was an adjustment problem unique to our test car..."

    (but derivative negative retrospective articles never mention this of course, just report on the mediocre time of 0-60 of 9.4 and 1/4 of 17.1)

    Even using arguably the worst and most disastrous review in Ferrari history, the straight line speed matches your beloved BMW 2002, and top speed is a full 30 mph more - so anybody daring enough to 'race' on a freeway or a long Nevada dessert straight away would leave the BMW in the dust. The 2002 would peter out at just 107 MPH.

    Also never mentioned was the Mondial 8 was unanimously declared the best handling Ferrari when it came out by ALL journalists, EVEN the ones that decried its straight line speed.

    We all know the subsequent versions, QV, 3.2 and t - had to make no apologies for performance.
    ***

    You criticized the Mondial's performance on a Mondial enthusiast forum; I am just responding. I was not aware that debate or asking for one's personal position was only allowed on social media platforms such as Facebook? I asked you for your situation because I find your criticism odd in this forum's context.

    For example, say I do not like the "Rolling Stones," the last thing I would do is frequent a Rolling Stones fan forum. - Not saying you are not allowed to do so, just explaining why one should expect vigorous debate and disagreement. After all, the MONDIAL forum on a Ferrari enthusiast site is not exactly 'neutral ground' ala Jalopnik or Car Throttle is it?
     
  23. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    BMW 2002 Turbo with close ratio box ... not tii. WAAAY more fun that my Mondial. And a lot more collectible. They made 1600 and only 11 made it to the USA. Half of the survivors are in Japan where it is THE cult car. It has 4 cylinders displacing 2L

    Wife Jetta is a 2012 not 1980s and it's turbocharged as well ("TDI"). Appreciably quicker than my Mondial. It's a 4 cylinder displacing 2L

    My Mondial was an 8, stock no performance upgrades. Yours may be more responsive, in fact I think I read several times that yours has the special "purple paint" upgrade. Mine was black.

    My comment about facebook was not directed at you at all. It was directed at Wade who, it seems, is an amateur psychologist. You seem to be a very serious guy, maybe you could ask Wade to do his thing for you as well?

    Just kidding, no offense there Paul. Knock yourself out.
     
  24. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    And to the OP, it seems too much to ask Ferrari to put A/C units in their cars that actually work. I have had an A/C in my house for years and it runs hard every day without trouble. Ditto my workshop (window unit) and that one cost only $250 used. If the A/C in the car you are buying does not work, do not buy the usual line "needs a recharge". What will need a recharge is your bank account after you spend thousands of dollars to fix it. And then it may work for a couple of years if you are lucky.
     
  25. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Proving my point. ;)
     
  26. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    #48 spicedriver, Jun 29, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    First of all, street racing is for kids and wankers. If you want race, get on a track with a track car. The Mondial is a road car. Built to last. The steel tube frame may be heavy, but you won't ever see Mondials sagging in the middle like the old Mustangs do, with their rusted out sheet metal "frame".

    A performance boost can be done with a swap to Weber carbs / performance exhaust. Or a turbo. It's all been done before. Don't know why you would need 400 HP in a street car anyway. I have trouble staying under the speed limit with 260.

    There's a reason you won't ever see a junkyard like this full of Mondials.
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  27. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2004
    925
    I have to apologize to the OP, it seems there are at least two people on this forum who seem to think that only POSITIVE things can be said about Mondials. They seem to think that this forum is for ENTHUSIASTS only, who see things through rose-colored glasses. You asked what a prospective buyer should be aware of. I wish someone had pointed out to me, before I bought mine, that these cars are slow and heavy by any standard and slugs by supercar standards. I wish someone had warned me about the outrageous price of any part that cannot be cross-referenced, and the fact that some parts are already unobtainable. I wish someone had pointed out that the interiors use a lot of VINYL and that the headliner sags after it gets tired. And I wish someone had warned me that the AC system and the sunroof are about as reliable as, well, a Fiat. For the MONDIAL was very much a FIAT, made with a lot of FIAT parts and engineering/design input. The ENTHUSIASTS who think this forum belongs to them will hate me for pointing this out. But ask Bill Pollard of Forza motors in CT what he thinks of the Mondial. He will tell you the same thing. Ask some other INDEPENDENT Ferrari mechanics what they think of the car. They will tell you what I just told you.

    Does that mean the Mondial is not worth a look? Well a year or two ago when you could buy them for the price of a FIAT, they were a good way for people of modest means to own and drive a car with a little horsie on the nose that made a lot of noise and had lots of fast car styling cues, and after all you can't go faster than 75 anyplace in the USA so they are fine as long as you understand. If you have little kids they are an OK compromise vs the other F cars of the period. But now that many sellers are holding out for $40K or more, I suggest you skip right over the 80's and 90's and get yourself a 360. Or look at the new Jaguars for the price of a used F car. I have never owned a Porsche because they remind me of VW Beetles but I understand they are way more reliable, cost of ownership is lower, and they generally outperform the corresponding F car.

    Well good luck with your purchase, and don't pay too much attention to the rah rah guys a lot of them will be sellers when facing their next major.

    PS Wade, I thought you sold yours? Paul, I feel bad your horsie is sick again. Oh well.
     
  28. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    The OP started this thread 8 years ago.

    And this forum IS for Enthusiasts. :)

    In 1999 I sold my Mondial 8 after seven year's of ownership. In 2015 I sold my 3.2 after owning it for 6 years. Now I have a 348 to hold me over until I can find the right t Coupe.

    So you see, I'm an advocate.

    There are plenty of naysayers in the comments section of Jalopnik. Maybe you'll have more fun there instead.
     

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